Last Time USA Declared War was 65 Years Ago

[mjarrels]

I just returned last night from Bagiuo Phillippines... Visited Camp John Hay where American Generals stayed... Great piece of history... (yep... I'm still in the PI).

mark

 

[IH3444]

Yep, numbers did the job....wanted to mention that also. When I watch the history channel now about certain WWII battles the number of Americans KIA, and WIA are staggering. And let's not forget the cemetaries in France of the Americans killed in WWI. Another european mess cleaned up by America. I understand the help France gave us to become America, but it was not out of the goodness, or kindness of their hearts. It was because of the economics of having a new world trading partner. On one project I was involved with, we were shown films of the most brutal assualts made by the marines on the Pacific islands. This was done at Quantico, Va. It was to impress upon us the importance of never having to subject American troops to those types of assualts again. The films had their desired effect, and I for one was numb after.....the only movies available to the public which depicts war as accurately as those films is "Saving Private Ryan", and "Band of Brothers". I know a WWII paratrooper who also viewed "Band of Brothers", and he said, yep, that's pretty much how it was. A good book on the Airbourne is "Geronimo", they would round up the fellers who survived a jump, and assualts behind the lines. Put them together into other units, and jump them again. Some boys were subjected to this time after, again and again.

 

[N80]

N80 I respect your post but I have to disagree with parts of it. The japanese were fanatical but against warriors. Pearl Harbor was an attack against the military more than against the civilian population. We did not have japanese agents that came into this country to blow up civilian population centers. That is a major difference.

I agree with what you are saying. I did not ever say it was the same type of war for the same type of reasons. I was simply saying that the Japanese fighting forces were probably the best and toughest we've ever faced, regardless of the situation or motivation.

The muslim population that is against the United States do not want to fight a war for territory they want to wipe every non muslim off of the face of the earth. There are no non combatants with these people.

There are still similarities with the Japanese. In china they waged a brutal war against the civillian non-combatants. Same was true in the PI and other Pacific islands. They may not have desired total extermination, but their disregard for non-combatants is legendary.

If we lose the war against terrorism it will not be because of the actions of our military. ........ If we lose against terrorism it will be because we cater to the world instead of doing the right thing.

I agree. And it represents quite an irony. We have made heros out of the men in WWII who fire bombed Dresden and numerous Japanese cities, killing hundreds of thousands of civillian non-combatants at a time. At the same time, if we now drop a stray bomb that hits a civillian home in Iraq or Afghanistan there is an international gasp of disgust and anger. Or worse yet, when a minivan comes bearing down on a check point at full speed and a terrified GI stops it with his 50 caliber according to rules of engagement, there are inquiries and threatened courts marshall when they find the van full of civillians. We cannot and should not ask our soldiers to fight this way. Would you want your child to not only be in there risking his life to serve his country but also being one snap decision away from being criminalized for defending himself?

The truth of the matter, sadly, is that 9-11 really didn't hurt us much. The economy is still great (or most of us would not own a tractor) and as a nation it is pretty much business as usual. If 9-11 had the same real impact as Pearl Harbor, we'd not only be in all out war with Afghanistan, Syria, Iran ann Iraq, and we'd be winning and dealing with it.

One word about technology vs numbers. I agree that technology in some situations can be overwhelmed by numbers, but by definition the cost in lives to our sons and daughters is high. The Sherman tank was a death trap. Our best dive bomber at the beginning of WWII was started with a hand crank. In Europe or tank crews dies like flies. At the battle of Midway, we lost an entire squadron of SBD Dauntless dive bombers on one mission.

The answer of course, is superior weapons in large numbers.

 

[turnkey4099]

Saw a clip of the ceremonies at Pearl. It was stated by one of the few remaining survivors that it would be the last one. Sad that.

As to the WWII/Iraq comparison. In WWII we were fighting an organized military with an organized, known government. In Iraq there is no organization, no head and we are basically trying to field an army against every individual there. There is no organization to attack. It is pitting technology against guerrillas and even there, the guerrillas are not organized.

Harry K

 

[cp1969]

We, as a nation, haven't got the guts to fight another war. I have been reading a little about WWII in Italy. A Texas National Guard division lost 1600 men in one night trying to cross a river...Darby's Rangers sent 767 men in an attack against the town of Cisterna; only six came back.

Can you imagine if that happened today?

 

[IH3444]

CP1969, that assualt was also just shown on the history channel. The fighting was so bloody, and mind numbing trying to take back Italy from the germans that both sides called a halt to fighting so that wounded could be gathered up on both sides. The germans at the stronghold at the monastary even had to borrow stretchers from the brits to carry their wounded back to their lines. Truly horrific.......NH80, George I should say is so very right on the money about the "rules of engagement", we are actually self defeating ourselfs. The stress on our soldiers must be overbearing at times.

 

[SkyPup]

We, as a nation, haven't got the guts to fight another war. I have been reading a little about WWII in Italy. A Texas National Guard division lost 1600 men in one night trying to cross a river...Darby's Rangers sent 767 men in an attack against the town of Cisterna; only six came back.

Can you imagine if that happened today?

I think the only difference betweent then and now is that the current crop of journalists are complete and total wimps......

Thomas Jefferson once said, ""I deplore the putrid state into which our newspapers have passed, and the malignity, the vulgarity and the mendacious spirit of those who write them."

 

[N80]

As to the WWII/Iraq comparison. In WWII we were fighting an organized military with an organized, known government.

That is sort of true. In Iraq there are well known, well organized militias. We know who their leaders are and where they live, but they are part of the current government's power structure. We could have, and should have killed Muqtada al Sadr a long time ago. But Iran and Syria are the real organization behind what is currently going on in Iraq. Perfectly organized militaries and governments. We simply don't have the stomachs or cojones to get the job done where it needs to be done. There is some conjecture that we don't even have the strength to get it done, but I disagree.

We also have the power to totally dominate entire populations, which is what has to be done in order to achieve military goals. But it is brutal, ugly business. I'm not even sure I have the stomach for it. But we have the power and we can do it.

 

[dmccarty]

At the battle of Midway, we lost an entire squadron of SBD Dauntless dive bombers on one mission.

Actually the Dauntless is what wiped out the Japanese fleet. It was the Devestator Torpedo bomber squadron that was destroyed with only one survivor. He managed to hide under a seat cushion even though the Zero's straffed him a couple of times. The Devestators came in low to drop the torpedoes and pulled the Zero's in the CAP down. The Dauntlesses came in while the Zero's where still down low so they where able to bomb without aircraft opposition. The Dauntlesses destroyed three Japanese carriers and eventually got the fourth big one later on. The Dauntless was a good plane. The Devestator was junk and was replace by the Avenger TBM that the first President Bush flew.

The Devestator pilot was somehow rescued by the US Navy and lived to a ripe old age. One of my Professors had a taped interview with the pilot.

Later,
Dan

 

[SkyPup]

Being a WWII carrier pilot in the Pacific with a fuel range of only a couple of hundred miles under radio silence off a carrier deck was NOT for the faint of heart.

If the carrier changed course due to subs or whatever, you were left on your own in the middle of a deep deep ocean.......