Late last night

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   / Late last night #101  
And, yes, I have been taught to never pull a weapon unless you intend to use it, but that doesn't mean you have to use it after it's pulled.

That's the philosophy I live by. That's also my only concern with concealed carry licenses. I'm not sure all of the Concealed Carry people understand this basic, human nature philosophy. You point a gun at me and you better be prepared to shoot me. If not I'll try to take it away from you and if successful will beat you with it.

I've had guns pointed at me and I've been shot at. It really tends to pi** you off.
 
   / Late last night #104  
Really? You don't see a difference between SHOUTING freeze and just saying it?

Harry K

No I don't in this case. So the kid was imitating a cop. Is that a reason to shoot him? Some here seem to think so.
 
   / Late last night #105  
Somebody I sent a PM regarding this thread congratulating them on such a thought provoking issue replied to me "I don't like it when threads get so heated" and I told him that a very famous person was quoted to have said: "I have never learned from a man who agreed with me...."
 
   / Late last night #106  
Getting back to the CDC report referenced in the link posted by TripleR, it's not a new study, more of a rounding up of previous studies grouped into topic areas with a lot of new areas of research suggestions. Read a couple paragraphs and you will get the flavor of the report.

Here is the link again if you want to read it. There are about 60 pages of reading out of the 120 total.
Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence

Regarding Defensive Gun Use (DGU) there is no new research, just a couple of pages summarizing, noting and commenting on past study results. I pasted them below:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 15-16 Defensive Use of Guns

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010). On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.

A different issue is whether defensive uses of guns, however numerous or rare they may be, are effective in preventing injury to the gun-wielding crime victim. Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ç*¥sed by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004). Effectiveness of defensive tactics, however, is likely to vary across types of victims, types of offenders, and circumstances of the crime, so further research is needed both to explore these contingencies and to confirm or discount earlier findings.

Even when defensive use of guns is effective in averting death or injury for the gun user in cases of crime, it is still possible that keeping a gun in the home or carrying a gun in publicå¹¼oncealed or open carryæ´‹ay have a different net effect on the rate of injury. For example, if gun ownership raises the risk of suicide, homicide, or the use of weapons by those who invade the homes of gun owners, this could cancel or outweigh the beneficial effects of defensive gun use (Kellermann et al., 1992, 1993, 1995). Although some early studies were published that relate to this issue, they were not conclusive, and this is a sufficiently important question that it merits additional, careful exploration.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 45: Individual Risk and Protective Factors
Protective Effects of Gun Ownership

Estimates of gun use for self-defense vary widely, in part due to definitional differences for self-defensive gun use; different data sources; and questions about accuracy of data, particularly when self-reported. The NCVS has estimated 60,000 to 120,000 defensive uses of guns per year. On the basis of data from 1992 and 1994, the NCVS found 116,000 incidents (McDowall et al., 1998). Another body of research estimated annual gun use for self-defense to be much higher, up to 2.5 million incidents, suggesting that self-defense can be an important crime deterrent (Kleck and Gertz, 1995). Some studies on the association between self-defensive gun use and injury or loss to the victim have found less loss and injury when a firearm is used (Kleck, 2001b).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


New research or study results from the CDC or Health and Human Services are limited by congressional prohibitions.

Page 23: Limitations on further study.
Impact of Existing Federal Restrictions on Firearm Violence Research

There are many legal and responsible uses for guns; an individualç—´ right to own and possess guns was established in the U.S. Constitution and affirmed in the 2008 and 2010 Supreme Court rulings in District of Columbia v. Heller15 and McDonald v. City of Chicago.16 However, the scarcity of research on firearm-related violence limits policy makers ability to propose evidence-based policies that reduce injuries and deaths and maximize safety while recognizing Second Amendment rights. Since the 1960s, a number of state and federal laws and regulations have been enacted that restrict governmentç—´ ability to collect and share information about gun sales, ownership, and possession, which has limited data collection and collation relevant to firearm violence prevention research. Among these are the amendments to the Gun Control Act of 1968,17 which prohibits the federal government from establishing an electronic database of the names of gun purchasers and requires gun dealers to conduct annual inventories of their firearms.

In addition to the restrictions on certain kinds of data collection, congressional action in 1996 effectively halted all firearm-related injury research at the CDC by prohibiting the use of federal funding �o advocate or promote gun control.?8 In 2011, Congress enacted similar restrictions affecting the entire U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.19 The net result was an overall reduction in firearm violence research (Kellermann and Rivara, 2013). As a result, the past 20 years have witnessed diminished progress in understanding the causes and effects of firearm violence.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are criticisms of some of the referenced study results. Gary Kleck in particular is a favorite target with attackers and defenders. There is an ongoing controversy over studies that date back 10-20 years ago. That is a sad state of affairs, so make of it what you will.

These deal with Kleck's DGU numbers:
Kleck-Gertz | The Propaganda Professor
Myth #3a - "Is there independent evidence to supports Kleck and Gertz?" | Buckeye Firearms Association
https://stat.duke.edu/~dalene/chance/chanceweb/103.myth0.pdf
Another Look at Estimates of Defensive Gun Use (Part VI) - Open Thread
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html
 
   / Late last night #107  
Getting back to the CDC report referenced in the link posted by TripleR, it's not a new study, more of a rounding up of previous studies grouped into topic areas with a lot of new areas of research suggestions. Read a couple paragraphs and you will get the flavor of the report.

Here is the link again if you want to read it. There are about 60 pages of reading out of the 120 total.
Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence

Regarding Defensive Gun Use (DGU) there is no new research, just a couple of pages summarizing, noting and commenting on past study results. I pasted them below:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 15-16 Defensive Use of Guns

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010). On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.

A different issue is whether defensive uses of guns, however numerous or rare they may be, are effective in preventing injury to the gun-wielding crime victim. Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was ç*¥sed by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004). Effectiveness of defensive tactics, however, is likely to vary across types of victims, types of offenders, and circumstances of the crime, so further research is needed both to explore these contingencies and to confirm or discount earlier findings.

Even when defensive use of guns is effective in averting death or injury for the gun user in cases of crime, it is still possible that keeping a gun in the home or carrying a gun in public幼oncealed or open carry洋ay have a different net effect on the rate of injury. For example, if gun ownership raises the risk of suicide, homicide, or the use of weapons by those who invade the homes of gun owners, this could cancel or outweigh the beneficial effects of defensive gun use (Kellermann et al., 1992, 1993, 1995). Although some early studies were published that relate to this issue, they were not conclusive, and this is a sufficiently important question that it merits additional, careful exploration.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Page 45: Individual Risk and Protective Factors
Protective Effects of Gun Ownership

Estimates of gun use for self-defense vary widely, in part due to definitional differences for self-defensive gun use; different data sources; and questions about accuracy of data, particularly when self-reported. The NCVS has estimated 60,000 to 120,000 defensive uses of guns per year. On the basis of data from 1992 and 1994, the NCVS found 116,000 incidents (McDowall et al., 1998). Another body of research estimated annual gun use for self-defense to be much higher, up to 2.5 million incidents, suggesting that self-defense can be an important crime deterrent (Kleck and Gertz, 1995). Some studies on the association between self-defensive gun use and injury or loss to the victim have found less loss and injury when a firearm is used (Kleck, 2001b).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

New research or study results from the CDC or Health and Human Services are limited by congressional prohibitions.

Page 23: Limitations on further study.
Impact of Existing Federal Restrictions on Firearm Violence Research

There are many legal and responsible uses for guns; an individual痴 right to own and possess guns was established in the U.S. Constitution and affirmed in the 2008 and 2010 Supreme Court rulings in District of Columbia v. Heller15 and McDonald v. City of Chicago.16 However, the scarcity of research on firearm-related violence limits policy makers ability to propose evidence-based policies that reduce injuries and deaths and maximize safety while recognizing Second Amendment rights. Since the 1960s, a number of state and federal laws and regulations have been enacted that restrict government痴 ability to collect and share information about gun sales, ownership, and possession, which has limited data collection and collation relevant to firearm violence prevention research. Among these are the amendments to the Gun Control Act of 1968,17 which prohibits the federal government from establishing an electronic database of the names of gun purchasers and requires gun dealers to conduct annual inventories of their firearms.

In addition to the restrictions on certain kinds of data collection, congressional action in 1996 effectively halted all firearm-related injury research at the CDC by prohibiting the use of federal funding 鍍o advocate or promote gun control.?8 In 2011, Congress enacted similar restrictions affecting the entire U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.19 The net result was an overall reduction in firearm violence research (Kellermann and Rivara, 2013). As a result, the past 20 years have witnessed diminished progress in understanding the causes and effects of firearm violence.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are criticisms of some of the referenced study results. Gary Kleck in particular is a favorite target with attackers and defenders. There is an ongoing controversy over studies that date back 10-20 years ago. That is a sad state of affairs, so make of it what you will.

These deal with Kleck's DGU numbers:
Kleck-Gertz | The Propaganda Professor
Myth #3a - "Is there independent evidence to supports Kleck and Gertz?" | Buckeye Firearms Association
https://stat.duke.edu/~dalene/chance/chanceweb/103.myth0.pdf
Another Look at Estimates of Defensive Gun Use (Part VI) - Open Thread
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

Do you have any cliff notes on all this? :)
 
   / Late last night #108  
Do you have any cliff notes on all this? :)

Sort of. The summary below that I posted earlier.

I noticed a lot of media noise being made over the report and needed to satisfy my curiosity by seeing the real thing. Much of that noise is unfounded I believe. For one thing, many articles would lead one to believe there is new, definitive study by the CDC. That's clearly not the case. The CDC rounded up and organized past work, some far in the past. It's a sort of where are we, what do we know, what don't we know type of summary.

Defensive Gun Use (Part I) - The CDC Report on Gun Violence

REVIEW OF CDC REPORT
The CDC report on gun violence was over 120 pages in length, but sadly had very little to say about defensive gun use. I will summarize their findings in list fashion

* According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Program, between 2007 and 2011, over 600,000 people reported facing an assailant armed with a gun.
* According to the FBI, 3% of firearm assaults known to police result in a death.

* According to a Pew Survey, �he vast majority of gun owners say that having a gun makes them feel safer. And far more today than in 1999 cite protection rather than hunting and other activities as the main reason for why they own guns (Pew Research Center, 2013)

* Four studies have been done showing that crime victims who actively used a gun to defend themselves had lower rates of injury than crime victims who did not use guns to defend themselves - Kleck 1988; Kleck and DeLone 1993; Tark and Kleck 2004; and Southwick 2000.

* Defensive gun use is a fact but it is difficult to count accurately.

* The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) has estimated that there are between 60,000 and 105,000 DGUs per year. Between the years 1992 and 1994, the NCVS reported there were in total 116,000 DGUs.

* Kleck and Gertz (1995) estimated the annual occurrence of DGUs to be around 2.5 million per year.

* The CDC report made no effort to reconcile the differing estimates of DGUs, except to note that the estimate provided by the Kleck group was larger by an order of magnitude than the estimate arising from the NCVS. The CDC report noted that the estimate of DGU provided by the Kleck group is twice again as large as the estimate of the Dept. of Justice that there are 1.3 million crimes committed with a gun in the USA every year.

* According to the CDC report: å…¸he 2005 National Research Council study found no persuasive evidence from available studies that passage of right to carry laws decrease or increase violent crime.

The take-home message by the CDC report on gun violence is that DGU does occur, and there are very large discrepancies in the available estimates. And sadly, the CDC report contains no suggestions for future research to better or more accurately assess DGU.
 
   / Late last night #109  
Sort of. The summary below that I posted earlier.

I noticed a lot of media noise being made over the report and needed to satisfy my curiosity by seeing the real thing. Much of that noise is unfounded I believe. For one thing, many articles would lead one to believe there is new, definitive study by the CDC. That's clearly not the case. The CDC rounded up and organized past work, some far in the past. It's a sort of where are we, what do we know, what don't we know type of summary.

Defensive Gun Use (Part I) - The CDC Report on Gun Violence

REVIEW OF CDC REPORT
The CDC report on gun violence was over 120 pages in length, but sadly had very little to say about defensive gun use. I will summarize their findings in list fashion

* According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Program, between 2007 and 2011, over 600,000 people reported facing an assailant armed with a gun.
* According to the FBI, 3% of firearm assaults known to police result in a death.

* According to a Pew Survey, 鍍he vast majority of gun owners say that having a gun makes them feel safer. And far more today than in 1999 cite protection rather than hunting and other activities as the main reason for why they own guns (Pew Research Center, 2013)

* Four studies have been done showing that crime victims who actively used a gun to defend themselves had lower rates of injury than crime victims who did not use guns to defend themselves - Kleck 1988; Kleck and DeLone 1993; Tark and Kleck 2004; and Southwick 2000.

* Defensive gun use is a fact but it is difficult to count accurately.

* The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) has estimated that there are between 60,000 and 105,000 DGUs per year. Between the years 1992 and 1994, the NCVS reported there were in total 116,000 DGUs.

* Kleck and Gertz (1995) estimated the annual occurrence of DGUs to be around 2.5 million per year.

* The CDC report made no effort to reconcile the differing estimates of DGUs, except to note that the estimate provided by the Kleck group was larger by an order of magnitude than the estimate arising from the NCVS. The CDC report noted that the estimate of DGU provided by the Kleck group is twice again as large as the estimate of the Dept. of Justice that there are 1.3 million crimes committed with a gun in the USA every year.

* According to the CDC report: å…¸he 2005 National Research Council study found no persuasive evidence from available studies that passage of right to carry laws decrease or increase violent crime.

The take-home message by the CDC report on gun violence is that DGU does occur, and there are very large discrepancies in the available estimates. And sadly, the CDC report contains no suggestions for future research to better or more accurately assess DGU.

Thanks. It's unfortunate that the report lacks DGU stats.
 
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