Leak in slate roof, use JD4310/430 + to access

[alternety]

I have a slate roof that can not be walked on. And there are aluminum gutters at roof edge. week or so ago I noticed water coming out of a wall. days of troubleshooting later, I am convinced it is improper flashing around a waste vent. Edge of roof is about 10' high and vent is about 10' in.

I looked at renting a cherry picker but I don't believe I can get the unit to where I need it.

I have a JD 4310 with a 430 loader.

What I need to do, is build something (relatively simple) that I can attach to the tractor as a balancing mass and cantilever a 20' ladder/platform/? out over the roof at an angle following the slope. I then need to be able to climb up to the platform and out on the part over the roof.

I am looking for ideas. I have gone out and stared at the tractor and have not come up with a solution that looks safe and doable.

One issue is the slow sink from the hydraulics if I actually use the bucket to hold something up. I would destroy the roof if it contacted it. And riding it up is way to dangerous.

I need to be able to drive up to the edge of the roof with the cantilevered portion higher that it will be in use because there is a down slope between grade and the house. If I could fasten an extension ladder to the top of a structure attached to the tractor, a tall pole with a cable and pulley could raise and lower the cantilevered portion. There are some structural issues there. With a couple of hundred pounds at the end of the ladder the forces on the pole would be significant. And I did very poorly in Statics 101, a long time ago, so force/strength calculations are beyond me.

So I need to take something like that, lift it up to get to the house and then lower it to the ground, or possibly leave the loader mechanism up but insert a post under it to keep it from moving. I do not have a welder.

I am also not sure I can remove the loader bucket and get it reattached. I bought this used and have not done any repairs yet. I am not sure of the terminology, but there are a kind of shoe that attaches to the tractor frame and the hydraulic cylinders. The machine has a lot of rust in that area, the shoe sort of things are pretty bent up, and the pins are all fastened by assorted bent nails and bolts.

It has been raining here for the last 6 months or so. Coldest recorded April. Currently appears to be March. I have three days of clear coming.

Be creative, but the solution should not involve a bag full of Helium.

 

[North Country]

It's not the answer you're looking for, but I'd call a roofer or figure out a way to get the rented picker in the right place. You can create a problem that is both very expensive and very dangerous quickly. If it was 10' up and 10" from the edge, I'd figure out a way to use the tractor. 10' up and 10' in with no roof contact allowed? I know we all stretch our machines, but a FEL is really not the right tool for that job.

"I have gone out and stared at the tractor and have not come up with a solution that looks safe and doable."

I'm not sure you will. At least you haven't tried any of the really crazy ideas...

 

[Wolfy]

Forget the tractor. You need maybe a 22' or 24' extension ladder, 2 standoffs (aluminum u shaped supports) and 4 U-bolts (2" wide x 5"-6" long). If you already have the ladder, the standoffs and U-bolts run $60 maybe for all. First separate the ladder. Fasten one standoff to the first half (always the rails NEVER the rungs) lean it on the roof. The standoff will save any gutters. Then fasten the other standoff to the other ladder half and hook that ladder over the roof. Now you can safely repair the roof, but don't forget to check the standoff bolts once you are on the roof.

 

[North Country]

When you say "hook that ladder over the roof" do you mean the peak of the roof? How does he get the 2nd ladder to the peak without breaking the slate?

 

[alternety]

NO contact can be made to the slate. This is not your fathers slate. Trust me on this. I have experimental evidence. And the overhangs are 4' deep.

It is supporting the cantilevered piece that is the nastiest in my mind. There is some serious rotational torque at the connection point.

To get a ladder up and stable without hitting the gutters, I could make a frame with L shaped legs for the bottom of the ladder and simply bring down the loader on the legs. But then all I have is a nice view of where I need to go.

A ladder tied to the side of the bucket with something, would give me the cantilevered piece, but would be subject to bucket droop. If I prop the bucket, I could put another ladder against the cantilevered ladder and crossover. That may require a bit more agility than I have available. But so far that is the simplest and likely to work.

If I get something viable, there are other future uses. There is an exhaust fan accessible only from the outside that will eventually require access. And there is painting for a small section of clerestory wall. The wall would be tricky, but the fan is probably doable with the arrangement I am trying to create.

The limitations I have provided are real and can not be ignored. A contractor would also have to figure out an access method, and you and I are probably more creative. I have no need for someone to actually repair the leak; if that is where it is. If it is there, is is simple bad work by the installer.

I should have embedded hard-points on the roof during construction. But I did not think of it in time. That would have helped for some of the possible access needs. I also understand that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. But I got what I got that can pick up and hold weights I can not even approach..

 

[Wolfy]

Yes sir, position the standoff maybe 6" to a 12" below the end of the ladder, then hook over the ridge. Towels could be used for padding, if needed. What I do is climb to the top of the first ladder, then have someone hand up the second, prepared ladder and carefully creep it up and over the ridge. It is a arm workout, for sure. I try to set it so the ladder is directly over the bottom ladder ( much easier to transition from one to the other ) Now I mainly deal with asphalt shingles, but can't see why it wouldn't work on slate.

 

[North Country]

So you have 4' overhangs - and the leak site is 10' from the edge....

What's the pitch of this section? How far to the ridge? Are there any other nearby areas of the roof that can take weight? Pictures would help with the creativity...

Right not I'm thinking about NOT cantilevering but creating a suspended frame that goes over the whole roof - 200 lbs on a 12' lever arm is a staggering amount of torque. Not only will the structure be stressed, you'll lighten your rear tires pretty severely if that's cantilevered off the bucket.

I grew up with a slate roof (yes, my father's slate) but it was pretty fragile. Today's slate is even thinner, correct?

 

[Wolfy]

One time when I only had a short ladder, I leaned it up and then raised my tractor bucket up. Then I climbed into the bucket and pulled up the ladder and placed it into the bucket. It felt very secure, however I was repairing siding. I really don't know if it would work on the roof, but either way it seems to me ( short of a manlift ) the ladder must run up along the roof.

 

[alternety]

NC,

That is indeed correct. Almost any pressure destroys it. The ridge is slate. There are no hard-points.

I have thought about trying to put foam rubber along the length of the ladder and lay it on the roof. I am just not sure if that will avoid cracking. And once cracked, there is no going back. With that approach, there is also the issue of how to get the ladder on the roof. I can't put it on and slide it up. I don't thing I can adequately control the fall rate on a 10' ladder from the end while standing on a ladder. Said ladder still having to be held up by something so it does not lean on the house.

Yet more background info. Another factor - siding is cement planks (Hardi Planks for those who know). If I made some sort of extended U shaped ladder holder, I may have problems with the siding. The funny materials are because the house is in a forest that gets quite dry every year, at the end of a dead end road, with no water supply. Fire may not be your friend. The overhang is to deal with solar gain (works beautifully). Attic vents on the outside edge of the overhang to minimize flame entry.

 

[alternety]

Wolfy,

If I was doing siding, I would feel comfortable with that approach.

 

[North Country]

How about access from the inside? Sheathing & drywall are easier to repair than slate. Whatever you do, you should definitely get some hard points installed once you're up there.

Got any pics or a sketch?

 

[JB4310]

I've been working on slate roofs for 30 years and have never seen one that could not be walked on, unless it's to steep, which is often the case, but they still have to be able to support significant weight.

We would typically prop a ladder against the edge of the roof, and push a hook ladder up over the peak and climb up. That would be on a 2 storey and up structure. For a single storey, just lay the ladder flat on the roof, you have to bring the bottom of the ladder way back and stake it, it's a little funky going up and down a ladder in that position, but it's doable. you could always put another ladder next to that one and just use the ladder on the roof, above the edge.

IMO, you are overthinking this. it shouldn't be that diffecult.

Just be careful.
JB.

A couple of pics of some slate roofs for those who never get to see them.
These are monster roofs, we do use boom lifts to gain access. The gutters on the brownstone church are 55 feet off the ground, the ridge is 95 feet.

 

[Egon]

scaffolding?

 

[Gizmo2]

I've been working on slate roofs for 30 years and have never seen one that could not be walked on, unless it's to steep, which is often the case, but they still have to be able to support significant weight.

We would typically prop a ladder against the edge of the roof, and push a hook ladder up over the peak and climb up. That would be on a 2 storey and up structure. For a single storey, just lay the ladder flat on the roof, you have to bring the bottom of the ladder way back and stake it, it's a little funky going up and down a ladder in that position, but it's doable. you could always put another ladder next to that one and just use the ladder on the roof, above the edge.

IMO, you are overthinking this. it shouldn't be that diffecult.

Just be careful.
JB.

A couple of pics of some slate roofs for those who never get to see them.
These are monster roofs, we do use boom lifts to gain access. The gutters on the brownstone church are 55 feet off the ground, the ridge is 95 feet.

JB,
I have to say if that was my roof and it was leaking.....I'd let it leak cause I would not be going up on that roof to fix it.

 

[Rustyiron]

I don't know if this will help you with reaching your leak but we regularly put a ladder up against alum. gutters, and unless you have a 300lb gorilla on the ladder playing around, the gutter will be fine. At worst a little paint scratched. If the gutter is installed with spikes/furells, set your ladder centered over a spike. Good luck and be careful.

 

[teg]

I hope the safety police aren't watching... Don't try this at *your* home. It's stupid AND dangerous... I originally had the ladder against the loader but the old gutter was fine (and easier). Another use for the grapple...

The house is only used for storage and we had some strong wind that knocked a few shingles off. We might do a metal roof but most likely it's a tear down...

 

[JB4310]

JB,
I have to say if that was my roof and it was leaking.....I'd let it leak cause I would not be going up on that roof to fix it.

:laughing::laughing: I like to show off those type of pictures for that wow/pucker factor.

I actually still enjoy it. I only get to go up on those big roofs a couple times a year, so it's kind of exciting, a break from the everyday jobs on the 1 and 2 storey houses. Those pics are not very impressive

JB.

 

[alternety]

Here is the roof. The sun does not shine on this part. Due North orientation. I repeat - IT WILL NOT SUPPORT PRESSURE. IT IS NOT THE SLATE YOU HAVE BEEN INSTALLING FOR n YEARS. Please try to stop telling me I do not understand what I have and address the problem.

Scaffolding does not really address the problem. It gets you to the edge of the roof and then we are back to the "can't put pressure on it" constraint.

teg - that is the sort of thing I am thinking about, but I do not believe I can lay the ladder on the slate. Personal experience.

 

[JB4310]

Here is the roof. The sun does not shine on this part. Due North orientation. I repeat - IT WILL NOT SUPPORT PRESSURE. IT IS NOT THE SLATE YOU HAVE BEEN INSTALLING FOR n YEARS. Please try to stop telling me I do not understand what I have and address the problem.

Scaffolding does not really address the problem. It gets you to the edge of the roof and then we are back to the "can't put pressure on it" constraint.

teg - that is the sort of thing I am thinking about, but I do not believe I can lay the ladder on the slate. Personal experience.

OK. Can you do something like what teg shows, maybe with some plywood under the ladder to spread the weight load further?

You would be able to work on eggs like that

JB.

 

[North Country]

What's the upper structure? Is it also slate covered? Can you hang anything off that?