Liquid Power

[NJBill]

Hi, My name is Lubey, I come from a very, very, big family. I was delivered to Power Trac, and was assigned to a 422, so my permanent home is in the twelve gallon tank right under the driver's seat. Our duty is to serve the owner at any time without warning, it's kind of like a waiting game. I have to sit and wait until the owner turns the key to start the engine, at that point I have to jump into action immediately, I come rushing out of the tank straight into the filter. ( We have to keep clean at all times) From the filter I go directly to section two of the Variable Volume Pump, and use only the amount needed to drive the wheels when the owner is ready, the rest of me passes through section one of the VV Pump directly into the return side of the tank, for other sections when they need me.

Hang on a while, it's time for a tea break.

 

[J_J]

NJBILL, What is this post all about. I think PT owners in general are way past a high school education.

 

[MossRoad]

You O.K. Bill? Gettin cabin fever are you?

 

[NJBill]

Back again.

Please forgive the numerous breaks which will occur, one of my other tasks at the moment is also as a caregiver, this sits very high on my priority list.

O K, so Lubey, although in motion is actually in a stationary position, waiting in the operating sections, 2, 3, and 4, for the signal from the owner. I would like to interrupt the actual motion as it happens, and stay with section two for informational purposes. there are six (6) exterior ports, and the one interior port we have already mentioned, going into section one.
one 1/2 inch hose from filter to upper RIGHT side
one port on the upper LEFT side feeding the Treadle, and a Bleeder cap
one port on the lower LEFT with a Tee feeding the REAR port of each
REAR Wheel Motor.
one port on the lower RIGHT with a TEE feeding the FRONT port of
each FRONT Wheel Motor.
Two ports on the upper FRONT come from the Treadle, the pressure to
the REAR, or FRONT ports is decided by which peadle you are operating
The small screw at the RIGHT UPPER Corner, could be for equalizing the
pressure, or changing the operating pressure.
My owner says his system appears to be OK, so if it ain't broke, why fix it?

So there you have the wheel system for my 422 in it's entirety. No cooler.

Section three, and section four to follow.

Bye for now.

 

[NJBill]

JJ
First my apologies to you, at one point you asked for a layout of the wheel system hydraulics, so I sent you the one that PT put in my "service manual".
That is totally wrong. I drew my own which is being explained in my "High School" meandering, for those who believe everything they see.
Some of our people who are commenting on all weird kinds of ideas, must have skipped over the class on the K I S S system.

MR
Cabin fever gave me time to find out exactly what the so called professionals at Tazewell actually did with the hoses. I found it very enlightening, and I just thought if there were others who never got a High School education, it may help them to remember that 2+2 =4 not 3.96274 or maybe 4.00175 as some geniuses would like to find it.

 

[MossRoad]

Cabin fever is a great thing. Allows for plenty of pondering, tinkering and taking stuff apart to see how it works. Please continue.

 

[ldabe]

Yes indeed! Please continue!
Though jj is definitely way ahead of me in his mechanical, electrical, hydraulics (and I am sure many other areas) I for one need all the 'basics' in the K.I.S.S. system.
I did graduate from H.S. and a bit more, but I have always thought that the K.I.S.S. system is by far the best system.
By the way...where are the pics? Each one is suppose to be worth a 'thousand words :~)

So, in the wisdom of MossRoad..."Please continue."

 

[J_J]

JJ
First my apologies to you, at one point you asked for a layout of the wheel system hydraulics, so I sent you the one that PT put in my "service manual".
That is totally wrong. I drew my own which is being explained in my "High School" meandering, for those who believe everything they see.
Some of our people who are commenting on all weird kinds of ideas, must have skipped over the class on the K I S S system.

MR
Cabin fever gave me time to find out exactly what the so called professionals at Tazewell actually did with the hoses. I found it very enlightening, and I just thought if there were others who never got a High School education, it may help them to remember that 2+2 =4 not 3.96274 or maybe 4.00175 as some geniuses would like to find it.

WHAT? You sent me a messed up schematic trying to confused me. I don't believe this. Just kidding.

 

[J_J]

JJ
First my apologies to you, at one point you asked for a layout of the wheel system hydraulics, so I sent you the one that PT put in my "service manual".
That is totally wrong. I drew my own which is being explained in my "High School" meandering, for those who believe everything they see.
Some of our people who are commenting on all weird kinds of ideas, must have skipped over the class on the K I S S system.

MR
Cabin fever gave me time to find out exactly what the so called professionals at Tazewell actually did with the hoses. I found it very enlightening, and I just thought if there were others who never got a High School education, it may help them to remember that 2+2 =4 not 3.96274 or maybe 4.00175 as some geniuses would like to find it.

WHAT? You sent me a messed up schematic trying to confused me. I don't believe this. Just kidding. I am glad you traced out your hydraulic lines. I have been meaning to do that also. I have an early 90's 1445 that even PT dosn't have a complete manual for my unit.
I may have the only model like it. I have the 45hp gas engine with a radiator. All the other stuff is similar.

 

[DieselPower]

OH NO!!!! Lubey's owner just ran into a tree and punctured a hole in the hydraulic line. Help me, I'm bleeding all over the ground. Gurgle, gurgle, drip, drip.

 

[MossRoad]

We only do that in hydraulic syrup season.

 

[NJBill]

MR and DieselPower
Thanks for throwing a little humour around, it sometimes help to brighten a boring subject.
DieselPower Stay on board, some of our diesel owners have a little trouble
during the cold spells.

Forgive the pause again, I had to keep a once delayed appointment for my Macular treatment, I believe it's working, anyway back to boring.

So we know that the Wheel circuit just does it's own thing, that it receives the cleanest oil available through a half inch hose, the wheel feeds are 3/8 inch hoses, and the control hoses through the treadle are 1/4 inch. The only thing I missed on the routing is that the FRONT port of the rear motor connects to the REAR port of front motor on it's own side. Oh! and of couse, no part of the wheel system connects directly to the cooler. ( It does on PT's diagram )

Section Three, pretty simple routing for the PTO feed. Oil is fed from the center of the suction feeds, into the LEFT side of the pump and out of the right side, all half inch hose all the way. From the pump into the lower front port of the Solenoid valve and out of the lower rear port. this hose goes directly up the short pipe right side of the lift arms wth a quick connect fitting, The return passage ( already paid for ) goes down the left side arm, and into the #4 port of the tank return section. I have still to check to make sure the suction lines have a stand pipe inside the tank, if not, we are sucking up mucky oil, that's the drain area, I did mention boring didn't I ??

Speaking of PTO, at full throttle, PTO on, my Track Vac well balanced turbine turns about 4200+ RPM.

Section four, with many duties,, starts of almost exactly like the PTO.Out of the tank Left suction port, to the left of the pump out of the right to the Valve Body again, in the front upper port, out of the rear right upper port, hose from the rear left upper goes to #1 tank return. Picture the steering unit from above, althought the ports are on the bottom, the hose from the valve body goes to the left port. the hose from the right port goes to #3 tank return port. The two rear ports feed the steering cylinders, in the case of my owners 422 that's on the left. 425 has one on each side.
Now the front port of the steering box is the feed for the Lift, Tilt, QA,
Sauer-Danfoss valve bank. We've been looking at everything from the aspect of the driver's seat, now we're going to look from the front, it's simple all you have to remember when we talk about the right "X" it's on the left.

I'll be back.

 

[NJBill]

Sorry I have to keep rushing off, I forgot one important thing.
STILL NO COOLER.

 

[NJBill]

WOW

Boring is a mild description, real quickly the last part is of course the sauers-Danfoss valve bank, visible tyhrough threctangular hole in the front wall. looking at the valve, two rows of three ports, Right two feed the lift cyls. Center two to the Tilt. Left two for the QA. Center of the left side port is from the Steering, and in the bottom right corner, end of the line, so to speak is a 1/4 inch hose going to THE COOLER, then from there into the tank return.
THE END. except
The cooler is four ten inch pieces of 3/4 inch tubing fastened equally between two eight inch pieces. Approx 84 fins eight inches by 1 1/2 inches are mounted on the tubes. I'm sure the engineers amongst us can figure the cooling this will offer, I forgot the formula !!!?

This information comes from a hose by hose check of the 422 to prove once again Tazewell relly dont care whether anything they do is right. If you want to believe your hydraulic drawings in your "Manual" go ahead. Your mowers, wheel motors, etc can't possibly be cooled with a layout such as this.
But don't take my word for it, which appears you are not doing.
Sorry I can't invent some thing new for you to chew on. I bought the PT to dig, carry, lift, mow, or whatever as the limbs dictate.
Sorry I wasted so much of your time with my personal satisfactions.

 

[BobRip]

WOW

Boring is a mild description, real quickly the last part is of course the sauers-Danfoss valve bank, visible tyhrough threctangular hole in the front wall. looking at the valve, two rows of three ports, Right two feed the lift cyls. Center two to the Tilt. Left two for the QA. Center of the left side port is from the Steering, and in the bottom right corner, end of the line, so to speak is a 1/4 inch hose going to THE COOLER, then from there into the tank return.
THE END. except
The cooler is four ten inch pieces of 3/4 inch tubing fastened equally between two eight inch pieces. Approx 84 fins eight inches by 1 1/2 inches are mounted on the tubes. I'm sure the engineers amongst us can figure the cooling this will offer, I forgot the formula !!!?

I don't quite understand. Does any hydraulic fluid flow through the cooler and back to the tank? If it does then it will cool the fluid.

I will try to run a test today and see if the cooler hoses are different temperatures. This should give an idea that fluid is flowing and being cooled.

 

[BobRip]

I don't quite understand. Does any hydraulic fluid flow through the cooler and back to the tank? If it does then it will cool the fluid.

I will try to run a test today and see if the cooler hoses are different temperatures. This should give an idea that fluid is flowing and being cooled.

I ran the engine and drove around the propery for about 20 minutes today. The hydraulic reservoir only got to about 85 degrees and the fan never started. The heat exchange was 120 degrees at both ends. I think it was picking up heat from the engine. The fan never started. Extra cooling is not needed at 40 degrees.

I traced one oil cooler line to the wheel circuit pump, just as shown on the diagram. It ties into the pump through a block with the fan thermostat on it. I believe this is an outlet of the tram precharge pump. So what they are doing is circulating some of the wheel motor fluid through the oil cooler. This seems reasonable to me. I could not trace the other line.

 

[J_J]

WOW

Boring is a mild description, real quickly the last part is of course the sauers-Danfoss valve bank, visible tyhrough threctangular hole in the front wall. looking at the valve, two rows of three ports, Right two feed the lift cyls. Center two to the Tilt. Left two for the QA. Center of the left side port is from the Steering, and in the bottom right corner, end of the line, so to speak is a 1/4 inch hose going to THE COOLER, then from there into the tank return.
THE END. except
The cooler is four ten inch pieces of 3/4 inch tubing fastened equally between two eight inch pieces. Approx 84 fins eight inches by 1 1/2 inches are mounted on the tubes. I'm sure the engineers amongst us can figure the cooling this will offer, I forgot the formula !!!?

This information comes from a hose by hose check of the 422 to prove once again Tazewell relly dont care whether anything they do is right. If you want to believe your hydraulic drawings in your "Manual" go ahead. Your mowers, wheel motors, etc can't possibly be cooled with a layout such as this.
But don't take my word for it, which appears you are not doing.
Sorry I can't invent some thing new for you to chew on. I bought the PT to dig, carry, lift, mow, or whatever as the limbs dictate.
Sorry I wasted so much of your time with my personal satisfactions.

The observations that you made of the hose layout is probably correct. The wheel motors and pump, are in a closed loop system, and I believe that the case drains of the wheel motors and pump go to the cooler and then tank. If any one line is pushing fluid through the cooler, then the tank oil is being cooled. The amount of oil that can be forced through the cooler could be limited by the size and strength of the cooler, which I am sure that it is low pressure.

Don't be too concerned by what people think. Your effort and diligence in this area is much appreciated. Just state the facts as you know them.

 

[MossRoad]

I ran the engine and drove around the propery for about 20 minutes today. The hydraulic reservoir only got to about 85 degrees and the fan never started. The heat exchange was 120 degrees at both ends. I think it was picking up heat from the engine. The fan never started. Extra cooling is not needed at 40 degrees.

I traced one oil cooler line to the wheel circuit pump, just as shown on the diagram. It ties into the pump through a block with the fan thermostat on it. I believe this is an outlet of the tram precharge pump. So what they are doing is circulating some of the wheel motor fluid through the oil cooler. This seems reasonable to me. I could not trace the other line.

I start mine up at 0 degrees and let it run for 10 mintues, then take off and plow. The reservior is hot to the touch after 15-20 minutes. And a few years back after a series of very heavy snow falls I noticed the cooling fan come on a few times after 30-40 minutes of plowing. I even put a magnetic heat duct diverter from my house over it and directed the heat toward the front. Every time I backed up I was treated to a nice blast of warm air from the hydraulic cooler.

 

[MuncyBob]

I have frequently run the PT at sub freezing temps and have noticed the cooling fan does not come on for at least 35+/- minutes of constant running. I would imagine the time it takes for the cooller to kick in will be determined by a combination of the ambient air temp and also the usage of the PT. My usage in the winter is primarily running buckets of manure from the "barn pile" to the "dump pile" which are apprx. 200 yards apart.

I have learned to drive in reverse at full speed very well! LOL!

 

[BobRip]

I even put a magnetic heat duct diverter from my house over it and directed the heat toward the front. Every time I backed up I was treated to a nice blast of warm air from the hydraulic cooler.

I like that. Can you show a picture or link?