Log cabin construction

[NewToy]

I briefly entertained the notion of a log home before we built our current place. All the previous posts bring up the issues that scared me off. I personally know three people that went with the log homes and the one thing in common was they took much longer to complete than originally anticipated. They all love their homes and wouldn't have anything else so ultimately it was a good fit for them. As outlined previously the maintenance is extensive and time consuming. They all heat with wood furnaces of some type and burn lots of wood. I love looking at them and enjoy the rustic "feel"
but I guess all the work and subsequent maintenance issues tipped the scales to go with a more conventional home. We ended up building a relatively maintenance free all electric home concentrating on energy efficiency. Add a big front porch, a bigger gin & tonic and a piece of nicorette gum(4mg) and I'm in heaven when I get home.
Whatever you do I wish you the best.

John

 

[N80]

As outlined previously the maintenance is extensive and time consuming. John

I kinda disagree with this and with others who mention extensive maintenance. The maintenance on my cabin is less than on my Hardiplank house which needs power washing at least yearly. Trim has to be painted every 4-5 years. The cabin, on the other hand, has needed next to nothing. We've touched up the window trim once in five years. And believe me, I know every inch of this structure and there is nothing about the logs that is time consuming or extensive compared to anything except maybe brick.

There are lots of reasons to prefer one type of house verses another, and I personally think brick is the best, but for me, logs are a close second. And I've lived in brick, vinyl, wood, masonite and Hardi-plank. I seriously considered stick built for my cabin. It probably would have been easier and maybe cost less. But I'm thrilled with my logs and so far they have required less care than anything else I've ever lived in.

And there is no rot. No mildew. And, my logs have not settled appreciably. They do check, which is normal. And I'm sure they change a bit with the humidity. But no measurable settling. I chalk that up to kiln dried logs fastened with Oly-logs. (I'm sure the whole house settled some, but I can't see any evidence of it.)

 

[scesnick]

Once again i agree with you N80. And I also do next to no maintenance on my log home. I stained it 3yrs ago for only the second time.
I also have very little, if any settling. But like N80 I spent the extra bucks for kiln dried logs and they are fastened together with Olylag screws.

I have a family friend that bought the "Air dried" logs and he has had substantial settling issues and even had his cabinets fall off the wall because of the logs shrinking. He has also had doors that are very hard to open etc...

 

[Tom_H]

Some friends of ours who live about 3/4 mile away built their own log house. The guy and his brother-in-law did all the work on weekends and sometimes a little in the evenings. The couple lived in an 18' travel trailer on the property for the almost 6 years it took to build the 6000 ft2 house (3000 ft2 main floor, 2000 ft2 basement, 1000 ft2 upper story). Their logs were 12" milled cedar with check groove and Swedish cope on bottom.

N80 mentions that his maintenance is less than others of us have mentioned. The maintenance on log homes can vary greatly depending on orientation to the sun, overhang, the amount of rain, the relative humidity, the species of wood, and a lot of other things, including how these all play into each other. The logs on our southern exposure developed a ton of small checks. Many of our winter storms have 60+ mph winds that come out of the SW and drive rain sideways straight into the logs. Humidity stays high all winter and the logs absorb a fair amount of moisture. Our summers are dry and we sometimes hit 115 degrees. This cooks all that moisture out and they shrink again. All this makes them expand and contract over and over, opening more checks, which then contributes to the ability for more water to get in. The contrast between people who say they have little maintenance and those saying they don't simply shows how conditions differ from place to place. Nobody is being untruthful; it's just that we all have unique and different circumstances.

I forgot to mention that on my own house, we broke ground in May 1993, moved in just before Christmas, and the last items like outdoor decks, etc. were finished in Jan. '94.

When my aunt retired in 1984, she moved to the Green Mountains in VT and acted as the G.C. on her log home which is about 1800 ft2.

One last thing to the original poster, are you absolutely certain that permits and inspecctions are not required? Usually, when you don't live in a city with city building inspectors, there are county building permits and inspectors. One thing you absolutely don't want to happen is to put a couple of years work in, then have some guy show up who says, "I am from the county building department. We buy new satelite images every two years and the computer contrast analysis of the last two recon. pics shows that you have non-permit construction going on." He then proceeds to point out all kinds of code violations that cost you tens of thousands to go back and correct. Definitely not what you want to happen. Much better to go to the county courthouse and make absolutely sure, and pay the fees up front, than to start construction hoping you won't have a problem then getting your teeth (figuratively) knocked out.

 

[scesnick]

I think the key to a long lasting log home is kiln dried logs, big overhangs and a quality stain.
Luckily I didn't read this post before I built or I would have ran for the hills.
If log homes are so prone to decay are so labor intensive to own, then why are there 200yr.old abandoned log homes still standing? I haven't seen any 200 yr.old abandoned stick built homes still standing....

 

[MotorSeven]

Tom, we don't have any codes here either, which is why i moved here. (2) permits-elec & septic.......that's it. I hope it never changes. For me, it's a freedom thing.........

RD

 

[gcp]

Tom h what Motor seven said! All permits I'll ever to build need already exists at my property.

I have mixed emotions about going through this deal but I'm investigating and evaluating....

 

[MotorSeven]

G, go see the logs & talk to the guy. The logs for my first home came from a guy (Aaron Zedlitz/Tyler Tx) who built his own hydraulic mill from scratch. he also cut & skidded his own logs getting free beetle killed trees from the local timber companies. The guy was a wellspring of information & gave me the confidence to build my own house. If you don't like what you see or hear...walk away.
800 mile trip? What a great excuse get away!

RD

 

[Fiero guy]

I had a lengthy reply to this typed out, but found myself logged out, I guess due to my slow typing. Check a website called Log Home builder's Association for info about logs and what causes rot and settling. Some eye opening info there, but take it with a grain of salt. They do not like kit homes there at all. They claim that milled logs remove a natural protective layer from the logs that allows rot and insects easy access.

I have seen a similar ad as the one you talk about--for 3 years now. Same ad-word for word each month. Supposedly, a buyer backed out, and the kit is discounted and says "$38,000 log home kit. Assmble walls in 2 days with 2 people-dried in one week later. Delivery to Houston for $3600 transportation costs."
Area code shows the seller somewhere in Arkansas.

 

[NewToy]

I think the key to a long lasting log home is kiln dried logs, big overhangs and a quality stain.
Luckily I didn't read this post before I built or I would have ran for the hills.
If log homes are so prone to decay are so labor intensive to own, then why are there 200yr.old abandoned log homes still standing? I haven't seen any 200 yr.old abandoned stick built homes still standing....

Depends how you define "still standing". There may be a few remnants left but that's about it. There will be some major issues on those 200 year old abandoned homes, hence the abandonment.

John

 

[Lasgambler]

I have seen a similar ad as the one you talk about--for 3 years now. Same ad-word for word each month. Supposedly, a buyer backed out, and the kit is discounted and says "$38,000 log home kit. Assmble walls in 2 days with 2 people-dried in one week later. Delivery to Houston for $3600 transportation costs."
Area code shows the seller somewhere in Arkansas.

Now that you mention it. We have those adds running in the locals out here in Arizona too. Seems, I remember that they had an 800 number. Almost the same wording.

The homes I have built are "scribe and cope". I would be real leary of the ones with the milled channels in the top of the logs like Eddie posted the pictures of.

 

[Paddy]

Log homes are for the charm only. There really is no advantage to having a log home in these morden times. In days past, log homes were practical because you did not need a saw mill. Square logs were made by hewn. I don't blame anyone who desides to go "log", it's just be imformed.

They are air leakers, just do a blower door test. A simple 30' x 40' home can have over a 1000 ft of log joints!

Insulation level is also very low for northern climates. Don't get fooled in R-equivalent. At steady temps, R is R

Shrinkage. They do it and the humidity is the driver. That is why 6 panel doors were made the way they are, each panel can expand in it's little frame. With being said, your exterior wals will grow and shrink, while your inside walls will not. (length shrink rates are much smaller than width shrink rates. Studs are length and logs are width)

It takes a mighty large overhang, Full porches all the way around, to keep driving rain off the walls. Staining every 3-5 years sounds like a big comitment. A failed flashing or a gutter issue can cause big problems quickly if not addressed. And don't forget, all the large over hanges on a two storey home just provide big splash areas up agaist the wall where porch meets wall.

They are just to dark inside for my taist. Takes a lot of windows and lights to lighten things up.

Powder post beetles, no need to say more.

I have really enjoyed building our Timber frame home, but I'm glad to say we are selling it and close on Friday. We are building an all concrete home with massive amounts of insulation.

Patrick T

 

[N80]

Log homes are for the charm only.

That's utterly ridiculous. You could say the same thing about brick or vinyl.

There really is no advantage to having a log home in these morden times.

Again, that's plain silly. You fail to take into account how unbelievably sturdy a log home is. And again, virtually any argument you make against log construction can be made for almost any other.

They are air leakers, just do a blower door test.

You are misinformed. Done properly, the logs in my kit should have zero air leakage between logs....tops, bottoms or sides. But that is also not a priority in much the country. In this region I have no need for a hermetically sealed home. Many respiratory studies find such homes unhealthy anyway.

Insulation level is also very low for northern climates. Don't get fooled in R-equivalent.

Once again, a narrow minded view. A log home can have additional insulation between the logs and the finish wall on the interior.

Shrinkage.

It sounds like you've jumped into a thread without reading it. My logs, as are many, were kiln dried. I've had no shrinkage at all. I recently inspected my cabin based on this thread. Five years old, in an area with high humidity and wide humidity extremes. No visible or measurable shrinkage. All doors and windows work the way they did when I installed them.

In fact, my cabin exhibits FAR LESS dimensional change than my stick built home. Far less.

It takes a mighty large overhang, Full porches all the way around, to keep driving rain off the walls.

That is true of any home. Obviously.

Staining every 3-5 years sounds like a big comitment.

That's absurd. Even a brick house has to have the trim painted at regular intervals. And as with the rest of your observations, your 'negatives' apply to virtually any type of common home. I live in a stick built, Hardi-plank home. I will be dropping a load of cash to have the trim painted very soon. Last paint job? About 5 years ago.

A failed flashing or a gutter issue can cause big problems quickly if not addressed.

Obviously! But hardly an issue restricted to log homes. Believe me, BTDT recently with my stick built residence.

And don't forget, all the large over hanges on a two storey home just provide big splash areas up agaist the wall where porch meets wall.

When were gutters invented? I think it was in Rome!

They are just to dark inside for my taist. Takes a lot of windows and lights to lighten things up.

First, that is, in fact, a matter of taste. Second, you are once again exposing your lack of understanding of log home construction. You interior walls can be covered with whatever you want. I've seen plenty of sheet rock in log homes. But you can also stain or paint the logs any color you wish. A naturally stained yellow pine log is quite bright. In fact, too bright for my taste.

Powder post beetles, no need to say more.

This is the problem with people posting before they've read what's in a thread. But I'll say it again, my log home is guaranteed for the LIFE of the home against bug damage.

But regardless of that, what on earth do you think 99% of the homes in the US are made of? Wood. Wood frames, sills, joists, rafters. Duh. And its going to take a termite or a powder post beetle a lot longer to weaken a log cabin than a stick built home. Once again, BTDT!

We are building an all concrete home with massive amounts of insulation.

And that's great. I'm sure you have lots of reasons for choosing concrete. But just like any other building material it will have its pros and cons. Someone who is as uninformed about concrete as you seem to be about logs might immediately get the mental picture of a BUNKER. And the appeal of spending gobs of money on concrete and massive amounts of insulation will be regional and limited at best.

But even when all of this is said and done. The OP is talking about a WEEKEND CABIN!

 

[scesnick]

N80,

Once again I totally agree with you. Sounds like he has fell victim to the myths about log homes.
Surprisingly, I hear alot of these myths frequently when I tell someone I have a loghome.

 

[dmccarty]

We have brick home, with no gutters and 28 inch over hangs. I will NOT have gutters on a home. To much work and they can cause too many problems. Roof design can keep the water from falling over entrances

We don't have any painting to do on our home. Trim is Azec which is white. I wanted to paint it green to match the metal clad doors and windows. Wifey said she likes the unpainted trim and did not want it painted green.

Ah. Ok. Green would look better but not having to paint looks better still.

Back to log homes.

The day we found our builder who was building a "log" home with 6x6 PT lumber, we went to a log home company. There was quite a bit of checking in the logs. They had lots of porches which look nice but are expensive, and the logs had lots of knots. My two cents on the logs was that they were had too many knots to be used for lumber so they sold them for log homes.

The reading I did at the time said not only can you get water leakage from the checks but also from the knots. So you need large overhangs and/or porches to keep water off the side of the house.

I think this company was using white pine it was not SYP. Whatever it was, it had lots of knots.

Back in 2000ish when we where looking at homes to build I noticed the log home kit manufactuers always seemed to have a sale. Where someone "ordered" the kit but then walked away. I could not figure if this was a scam to buy the kit or people really did put down money and then walk.

Many years ago on TBN I remember a thread about a log home a guy was going to buy or did buy. It had lots of water problems. Might be worth a search to see if the thread can be found. It might have some info on what to avoid in a log home.

Later,
Dan

 

[Paddy]

scesnick,

No myth here, I've lived in a log home for 25+ years

Patrick T

 

[Paddy]

N80,

You are getting way too excited here. In fact your pretty insulting to keep stating I'm miss-imformed. I enjoyed my log home, I have owned it for 25+ years, if that means anything to you. How long have you lived in yours? I have a degree in engineering and have been involved in the building industry for 25 years. In this day and age ther are better materials for the exteror coverings and designs that better maximize energy consumption. If you can't see that, I give up, you win. Logs are the best thing ever created....


When I stated log home are for charm, nothing wrong with that. No different than gold for rings, looks nice but a bit soft.

So I sumize the advantage of a log home is that it is sturdy. How is your roof attached? SIPs, ICFs and stagered studs have huge advantage both structurally and energy efficiency.

Log walls leak air more than any other type of modern construction. Funny how you state logs hold tight but then you finish that air tight is not good for you! ICFs are built air tight, poured walls will do that with out debate. We use heat exchangers that control fresh air but extract the heat first.

You mention this additional insulation on your log walls, where do yo have it? And if you cover your logs with insulation, what's the point of logs again. Read the Oak Ridge National Labs reports on insulation.

Did not jump the thread on shrinkage. just know my materials. Engineering school learned me a few things. It does not mater if you have kiln dried logs or green, at some point your material will reach steady state with regards to moisture content,,,,until the humidity changes. Then it will change. if you don't belive me throw a 2x6 out on your porch and let her set a bit, take a pare of digital calipers an measure it. Is it exactly 5.500"?

The point I made about roof "splash" was not sourced from lack of "Roman" gutters but rain hitting the roof deck and splashing agaist the log walls on a second level. Much like rain hitting your deck and soaking your logs. It happens...

I say again, I loved the charm of my log home. I was proud to live in the woods. I've moved on....

Patrick T

 

[N80]

Paddy, the point to you and Dan is that just because some log homes are poorly designed, poorly built or poorly maintained is not in the slightest an argument against log homes. If you wish to discuss rates of water damage, poor air seal, bug damage, dry rot, wet rot, blah blah blah blah blah then nothing comes close to the typical American stick built home of the last thirty years. For every log home you can find with these problems I'll find you ten stick built homes in the siding of your choice that have the same problem or worse....in my neighborhood!

All logs check. Many have knots. In five years the exterior checking on my cabin shows no evidence of leading to rot or log damage. You might claim that five years isn't much, but its 1/4 of the warranty given on most modern exterior sidings or facades. And zero evidence of problems or wear in that amount of time is pretty darn good and pretty much shoots the common log cabin myths in the foot. And that's on a cabin that gets almost no maintenance and is only lived in a few weekends a month!!!

Patrick, just because your log home sucked, doesn't mean they all do. How hard is that to understand? Any poorly designed, poorly built and poorly maintained structure will do....poorly. Do it right and it stays right. Common sense.

There is nothing, in my estimation, that makes a log home any less appealing or durable than any other type of home construction. At the same time, I would not argue that it is far superior to any other type. But none of your arguments against log construction stand against common sense or even popular experience. If log homes were as prone to the types of problems that you and some others suggest, then they'd be impossible to insure. And they are not.

I think a possible part of some people's misconceptions about log homes comes from the log home industry itself. There are lots of fly-by-night franchises that will sell you a pile a logs and a xerox copy of 'How To Build a Log Home in 5 east steps.' Add that to log homes built by contractors who are hungry for work who build the log home with no experience and you get some crappy logs homes.

But this is hardly an indictment of well designed, well constructed and well maintained log homes. And there are far too many of them out there for your myths to hold any water whatsoever. They are quite popular around here. Some of them are practically mansions. And they are holding up as well as anything else in the area if not better.

 

[N80]

N80,

You are getting way too excited here.

I think you'd be surprised at how un-excited I am. And please, call me George.

I have a degree in engineering and have been involved in the building industry for 25 years.

That makes your misconceptions and unsupportable arguments all the more surprising.

In this day and age ther are better materials for the exteror coverings and designs that better maximize energy consumption. If you can't see that, I give up, you win. Logs are the best thing ever created....

Ah, if you can't support your opinions, just change the argument. At no time did I suggest or argue that logs were the best thing ever created OR that modern materials were inferior. That is totally you. Not me. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the arguments you made against log homes.

If you are a highly trained engineer, support your arguments and don't try to change the nature of the argument or my position.

When I stated log home are for charm, nothing wrong with that. No different than gold for rings, looks nice but a bit soft.

That's were you are dead wrong and that's not what you said. You said log homes were for the charm ONLY. You come into a thread about people living in and building log homes and make a totally unsupportable statement like that and then accuse someone else of being insulting. Now that is irony for ya.

So I sumize the advantage of a log home is that it is sturdy.

The log walls of my cabin are 8 inched thick and are more sturdy than brick, hardi-plank, vinyl, cinder block and wood siding. My daughter can put a hole in any of those with a claw hammer. I can kick through some of them.

How is your roof attached? SIPs, ICFs and stagered studs have huge advantage both structurally and energy efficiency.

Once again, you are distorting the argument and my position. This is where you need to pay attention:

You stated that the only asset of a log home is its charm. I contended that this is an untrue statement. It is incumbent on you to prove your statement, which I have amply disproved. I in no way have to prove that log construction is superior to everything else in order to disprove your original, and incorrect statement.

Log walls leak air more than any other type of modern construction.

This is an unsupportable generalization. My log walls are stacked in tongue-and groove fashion. The tops of the logs have two parallel 'tongues' that fit into parallel grooves on the bottom of the log on top of it. In each of these grooves is closed cell foam tape. Then the logs are screwed down tight with 18" lag screws about every foot. Between the abutting ends of adjacent logs a 1" hole is drilled and a dowel is driven into that hole which extends into the log below. Abraham Lincoln's logs may have leaked air between logs, but mine do not. I've explained this twice now.

Funny how you state logs hold tight but then you finish that air tight is not good for you!

Its more funny that you claim to be an engineer but forget that even a log cabin has windows and doors. Mine are not, nor were they intended to be energy efficient or tightly sealed. But just because my doors and windows might be leaky doesn't mean the logs are. See?

ICFs are built air tight, poured walls will do that with out debate. We use heat exchangers that control fresh air but extract the heat first.

I don't know what ICFs are and don't have any idea what you are talking about but I'm pretty sure is does nothing to support your statement that log homes are only for charm.

You mention this additional insulation on your log walls, where do yo have it?

You really don't seem to be paying attention. I have a log cabin for weekend use. I never said I had additional insulation. I don't have any insulation. I simply said that many people have standard sheetrock or wood paneling in the interior of the log walls. The space created there can be insulated if needed.

And if you cover your logs with insulation, what's the point of logs again.

Well that's just it. But you can't understand it because you think the only function of the logs is charm! The look of the logs is NOT the only thing that drives people to build log homes.

Read the Oak Ridge National Labs reports on insulation.

No need. I don't think anywhere in this long thread did I make any claims about the insulating quality of the logs. It is not much of an issue here down south.

Did not jump the thread on shrinkage.

Don't need to. Didn't you read the part about where I've had ZERO problems with shrinkage? What more need I know or need I say.

if you don't belive me throw a 2x6 out on your porch and let her set a bit, take a pare of digital calipers an measure it. Is it exactly 5.500"?

So what. Wood changes. Probably 99% of the homes in this country are stick built of wood. My residence changes all the time. Doors constantly change fit. Windows too. But not the cabin. The logs have reached a steady state. If kiln drying has no impact on that, again, so what. They are steady and there is no perceptible change day to day, year to year, season to season. Can't beat that in my book regardless of what an engineering text book might say.

The point I made about roof "splash".......

The east and west walls of my south facing cabin gets soaked every time it rains. I mentioned this a good many posts up above. The water beads and runs off. The stain is thick and oily and after five years without maintenance it is still working well. About time for a new coat, but the logs still look fantastic.

I say again, I loved the charm of my log home. I was proud to live in the woods. I've moved on....

Patrick T

That's great Patrick. I'm sure you'll be happy in whatever you decide to build. But you moving on is irrelevant to the gist of this thread unless you have facts to support that the sole value of the log homes that the rest of us are quite happy with is 'charm.' And so far you have presented some good arguments for superior materials, but you've done nothing to support your original statement. No one in this thread ever claimed that logs home were the best and only. Maybe you misunderstood that.

I may have time to check back on this thread tomorrow morning....but after that I'll be down enjoying the charm of my LOG CABIN where TV and internet are not welcome.

 

[dmccarty]

Paddy, the point to you and Dan is that just because some log homes are poorly designed, poorly built or poorly maintained is not in the slightest an argument against log homes.

No, but isomeone looking at building a log home should be aware that these problems exist and need to be addressed. Otherwise how would they know the difference between a good/bad design and good/bad build?

If he was asking about building a stick built house or a modular I can also talk about good/bad designs, problems, materials, etc. Mentioning things to watch out for in building a particulare type of home is not an argument against that type of home.

I certainly have not argued the man should not build a log home. If he wants one, go for it. But he should know the pros and cons so he can make informed decisions. Is that not why he is asking questions?

Later,
Dan