Logger ripped off my neighbors

[4570Man]

Yeah, and splitting it is most of the work. I'd be surprised if you get $20 a cord for logs. I know I've never paid a dime for un split wood, and I've hauled in a bunch of it.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Read my earlier post. The logging business is heavily regulated in WA. A contractor's license is required, even for just trimming trees. The State Dept of Labor and Industries is a place to start. Business are taxed on their gross reciepts every year. I have been a small business owner. Businesses licensces are the domain of the Secretary of State. State Industrial Accident Insurance is expensive for loggers as that is a high accident trade. There are a lot of reasons guys are working in the underground economy where there is no requlation and little enforcement.

Ron

 

[TheMan419]

I would second (third?) the advice to see about a license. I would also file a complaint with your State Attorney General. It might not help your neighbor from getting their money back, but it will help the next guy if they check up on the contractor. Also file a complaint with the Better Business Bureau. Again won't help your neighbor but serves as a warning.

As for helping your neighbor if the contractor is licensed also find out from the licensing people if they are bonded. If so find out how to collect on that bond. I.E. do you need to sue in small claims and get a judgment?

Good luck!

 

[dmccarty]

WHAT DOES THE CONTRACT STATE?

If there is a contract, it will spell out what the logger was to do and not do.

If there is no contract, well, it sounds like WA has some business requirements, and if those requirements are not met, that would be an avenue to pursue.

When we had our land logged, I did quite a bit of research on regulations, current prices, etc. We could have contracted for the logger to clear up the slash, but we did NOT do so since it was not to our benefit. I know some very intelligent people who have gotten ripped off via loggers. There have been quite a few discussions about logging on TBN over the years and searching for those might be helpful.

In this case, it gets down to the contract and state regulations.

Later,
Dan

 

[clemsonfor]

Here's the thing, an elderly couple next to my property had a logger cut down trees close to the home that could fall on them due to experience of fallen trees from a storm 3 years ago that blocked their drive for days. It was when I did a welfare check in the area and that's how we became friends. (I cleared the trees)

Now, this logger signed a contract which the couple only had to pay $400 for the deal which the logger can take whatever trees away and to clear up the slash into piles at the back end of the property. He ended up just taking 4 truckloads of trees, leaving everything else behind.

I'm trying to help them out. I just did 5 straight days of clearing up the property of slash since it was important to get it done before wet winter came (had a solid week of dry, warmer temps) and now the focus shifts on going after the logger. What should they do? What's the expected value of 4 truckloads of pine/fir that he took to the mills? The cost of cleanup I don't intend to recoup at all, but rather have them hang onto it as part of their rainy-day funds.

I've attached pics. Glove was used for scaling purposes. Last pic is my Branson tractor with the Anbo grapple that helped me get the job done... approx 3 solid acres of slash!

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This post was just brought to my attention. I have just read your original post and nothing else so that's where I am here in this post.

I am a professional forester, but I work in the southeast so my experience and advice relates to my work experience and area. We have a forester out west I think in Washington who is a forester I believe. I think his name might be Pilot or something similar??

Anyway back to what I will say, Logging 90% of the time is UGLY when first done. When done in a yard or around a house its UGLY 100% of the time. As to what they did. The contract stated that they "pile brush in the back of the property" they did not do this, this constitutes breech of contract on their part if they claim to be done. I would have them contact their local or state Forestry commission. But this is likely a small claims court deal.

As to the value of the wood, around here that wood in this case has zero value to a land owner. It has value at the mill yes, I wont quote values as to mine is for Southern Yellow Pine which in my area has no bearing what-so ever to yours. Having them pay $400 plus giving the wood to the logger for the removal sounds about right....if they did their part and piled the debris. These were hazard trees by their definition near drives and such, the contracting for removal by a tree service would cost thousands per tree possibly for dropping and removal. A logger keeping wood or given wood for a job is common practice, even 4 loads. Around here I have heard of 2x that being given just to get them gone. Loggers just do not pay for that small a quantity of wood. They have transportation costs and down time which leads to loss of production which costs money and the fuel to move things around. Its basically a day to move in and move out around here. Out there I think there is more hand felling and limbing and possibly loading with just one piece of equipment which could possibly be pulled by one short framed truck so their costs and downtime may not be as high, but still real. Around here a logger with good equipment is usually in the $1 million dollar of capital investment ball park. They really don't care about your 4 loads, and will not take them if you give them to them, even if cut and down in a pile. The cost to just move and load is more than the wood.


I know this is really not the answer you want to hear, but I get questions like this all the time. What's my 15 trees around my house worth....?

 

[California]

Thanks Clemsonfor for that professional advice.

I had naively thought timber in small quantities paid for the cost of its removal. Obviously that's not the case!


Getting back to the facts of this case I wonder if using the logger's heavy equipment to move the slash would tear up the ground and make even more of a mess.

 

[dickfoster]

The logger who did my project had 30 years experience, excellent equipment, treated the steep slopes with great respect, and left a clean job. He was an expert at manufacturing logs. The mill graded the loads at only 3% to 4% defect. He made money, I made money, and I did not begrudge him his percentage. That faller-buncher was not a cheap piece of equipment. He even managed to sell a couple of truckloads of tops for hog fuel, and left about 10 years of firewood decked for me. I asked other timber owners who they recommended for a small job, and he was the unanimous pick. I was happy to pass along that recommendation the next year.

Well I didn't say all, I said overall. There are even some decent lawyers and politicians out there although they may be rare examples and not representative of their lot.

 

[motownbrowne]

Well, a couple things. One, it sounds like your neighbors needed "tree work" done, which is different than logging. The tree work was the removal of the trees near the home. $400 is very cheap for work like this. It sounds like the logger was paid $400 and some logs for the tree work hr did at the home. Now, depending on the value of the logs, that may have been a fair price. Whether it was agreed upon or not is a different question. Also, whether on not he cleaned up like he said he would is a different question. I just mostly wanted to address why the landowners were not paid for their "timber sale" because it wasn't a timber sale, they needed someone to cut some trees and rather than pay an arborist or tree service, which probably would have cost $1000-2000 (complete guess here), they paid someone who could market the logs and used logs as part of their compensation.

Also, remember that the logger didn't get paid $400+4 truck loads of logs, he got paid $400+ enough standing trees to make 4 loads. He had to cut, limb, skid, load, truck them. Standing timber isn't worth the same as logs on a truck.

Lastly, around here we pay $80-100 per cord of hardwood logs delivered (the majority of that price is trucking). Cut and dried wood is worth $250ish. For a pile of pine like that on the ground, for the buyer to load is worth much less. Maybe $40-50/cord. Personally, I might consider paying $25/pickup load, but I have a big pickup. If you can get more for the wood, that's great, but dont count on it.

I am sorry that your neighbors aren't happy with the situation, and i think you're a real great guy got helping them clean it up!

 

[turnkey4099]

I know that it averages about $220-$250 a cord for split seasoned wood around here.

Unsplit likely around $180 to $220.

Firewood in the round (unsplit but cut to length) isn't worth much. There is the labor and equip to haul, the labor and equip to split/stack. I'm retired and clean up farmers old, dying willow groves. Burn about 3 cord/yr, sell around 10 at $120/cord (doesn't make any money but about covers fuel and some maintenance costs).

Even if it were Oak I would figure my time/equiopment/labor at no less than $100/cord for rounds.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

This post was just brought to my attention. I have just read your original post and nothing else so that's where I am here in this post.

I am a professional forester, but I work in the southeast so my experience and advice relates to my work experience and area. We have a forester out west I think in Washington who is a forester I believe. I think his name might be Pilot or something similar??

Anyway back to what I will say, Logging 90% of the time is UGLY when first done. When done in a yard or around a house its UGLY 100% of the time. As to what they did. The contract stated that they "pile brush in the back of the property" they did not do this, this constitutes breech of contract on their part if they claim to be done. I would have them contact their local or state Forestry commission. But this is likely a small claims court deal.

As to the value of the wood, around here that wood in this case has zero value to a land owner. It has value at the mill yes, I wont quote values as to mine is for Southern Yellow Pine which in my area has no bearing what-so ever to yours. Having them pay $400 plus giving the wood to the logger for the removal sounds about right....if they did their part and piled the debris. These were hazard trees by their definition near drives and such, the contracting for removal by a tree service would cost thousands per tree possibly for dropping and removal. A logger keeping wood or given wood for a job is common practice, even 4 loads. Around here I have heard of 2x that being given just to get them gone. Loggers just do not pay for that small a quantity of wood. They have transportation costs and down time which leads to loss of production which costs money and the fuel to move things around. Its basically a day to move in and move out around here. Out there I think there is more hand felling and limbing and possibly loading with just one piece of equipment which could possibly be pulled by one short framed truck so their costs and downtime may not be as high, but still real. Around here a logger with good equipment is usually in the $1 million dollar of capital investment ball park. They really don't care about your 4 loads, and will not take them if you give them to them, even if cut and down in a pile. The cost to just move and load is more than the wood.


I know this is really not the answer you want to hear, but I get questions like this all the time. What's my 15 trees around my house worth....?

Regarding the value of the logs, I logged 20 acres in 2013 because D. fir prices were good. I also had mature ponderosa pine and incense cedar. The logger and his equipment were on site, and we didn't bother to cut any pine or cedar. The standing trees actually had a negative value, and it would have been money out of my pocket to truck them to the mill. Maybe pine and cedar will be worth something in the future. It has happened in the past. If that happens, the logger would be happy to come back and get them. Meanwhile we had a crew come in and replant nothing but D. fir.