My emax takes a lot of cranking to start. Slightly less when weather is warm. Have tried multiple cycles of the glow plugs to no avail. Always starts eventually...after cranking for 5-10 seconds at a time, multiple times. The battery tested good. All cables, terminals, lugs are clean and tight. Fuel lines are all good and tightly clamped in place. Glow plugs all tested and have no issues that I could find. What should I look at next?
Long cranking to start emax22
- Thread starter Jimklenz
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WranglerX
Super Member
Fuel supply .... IF glow plug are good and heat, it's a fuel or air problem.... Does system have electric lift pump to prime/supply injector pump?
JTKub
Veteran Member
Has it done it since new? I had to look it up. It appears to use a Daedong 3C100? I've heard various u-toobers say these are a little cranky in the cold, but you know how accurate that can be.
The little Korean Yanmar 3TNM74F in my TYM will fire right off in the cold, even if you forget to run a glow plug cycle.
The little Korean Yanmar 3TNM74F in my TYM will fire right off in the cold, even if you forget to run a glow plug cycle.
Yeah it's the daedong engine. Where'd you find that info? Good to know that this isn't necessarily just common to all diesel tractors like some people say. It has done this since it was new. That never seemed right to me but I just didn't have the time to do diagnostics on it. I still have a lot to learn but if have a bit more time to do it now.
Kay...I should have mentioned this before but with the long cranking starts I also get a 3-4 blink code which is the magnetic pickup sensor. It was hard to find info on this and I don't have much understanding of this sensor. Is it the same as a crank sensor? It is located somewhere around the bottom of the injection pump. Could it be causing the long cranking issue if it's a bad sensor? Or is it detecting something like incorrect injection timing? Apparently if it detects a sudden slowdown of engine speed during regular operation, it will flip the engine into limp mode (1200rpms) but that has never happened as the tractor has always ran well once it is started. Anyway. Just some more potentially pertinent info I should have shared from the get go. Better late than never I guess.
JTKub
Veteran Member
In terms of the cold start thing, back when I was shopping sub compacts, I watched a few videos of Kioti CS2210 and 2220 owners mention their Daedong engines were and a little hard starting in the cold. They didn't elaborate further or demonstrate the issue, so it's most likely not an issue at all.
Your magnetic pickup sensor thing is interesting. I can't imagine what it would do on a small mechanical diesel other than run the tachometer? Hopefully some smart fellers will chime in. I know on gas engines, if they can't get a good read from a crank sensor (magnetic pickup), if they'll run at all, they will crank for an uncomfortably long time before they'll start.
Your magnetic pickup sensor thing is interesting. I can't imagine what it would do on a small mechanical diesel other than run the tachometer? Hopefully some smart fellers will chime in. I know on gas engines, if they can't get a good read from a crank sensor (magnetic pickup), if they'll run at all, they will crank for an uncomfortably long time before they'll start.
The MPU throwing a code seems to happen if I try to crank it when the glow plugs haven't finished a cycle. That seems to be due to the voltage drop when the plugs are active. If I let the plugs finish their cycle, and then crank, the MPU doesn't throw a code. I tested the MPU for resistance and function and it is totally fine.
Overall, when I do about 3 sets of cranking for 7-8 seconds with a break of about 30 seconds in between while the glow plugs cycle, the tractor starts at somewhere around 4-5 seconds of cranking, the third time. That is in temperatures of about -5 to -8 degrees Celsius without the oil pan heater being plugged in, or -10 to -15 degrees Celsius with the oil pan heater running for 5+ hours.
When tested during the cooler weather, the starter has good consistent voltage while cranking when the glow plugs aren't operating. When I tried cranking before the glow plugs had finished their cycle, the volts at the starter dropped a below a reasonable range and the MPU threw its code again. This seems to indicate that the MPU is throwing a code due to the engine cranking a bit too slowly because of voltage drop if you crank while the plugs are still active.
During the summer, I could usually get it to start after about 10 seconds of glow plugs and minimal cranking. That seems a bit better than I remember from previous summers but...maybe I just wasn't monitoring it closely enough.
All the fuel lines and hose clamps have been replaced. The fuel filter assembly had a leak at the petcock valve. The way the lever for this valve was connected, it wouldn't sit properly in the valve housing. So the o-ring at the valve lever base wouldn't make even contact with the housing. In fact the lever wouldn't even grab the nylon valve to turn it properly. It really was a piece of junk. Aside from getting a replacement with the exact same flaw, I saw no alternative so I took off the valve lever, tapped the housing where it sat, and put a threaded steel plug in there sealed with diesel resistant loctite. Before this procedure, you could see fuel was consistently leaking out of this valve over time. It doesn't leak anymore. I don't love the solution but I am going with it for now until I get a better solution like an improved fuel filter assembly. I can only assume that I have it sealed now because there is no more fuel leaking out of the valve. After replacing all the lines and clamps and doing the best I could to seal up that faulty petcock valve, I followed the full air bleed procedure until there were no more air bubbles escaping from the various bleed points and it was just fuel coming out. Could there still be air in there some where? Perhaps.
Regardless, it seems to start pretty consistently with enough cranking and really, it always did. So the possibilities that I can think of are:
Fuel Injection Pump Losing Prime Because:
-there is still air getting in there or sitting in the line somewhere in a stubborn pocket that doesn't bleed easily
-fuel is able to flow back to the tank when the tractor isn't running and there should be a check valve in there somewhere or there is one that has never worked properly
-OR-
-the injection timing is off (This is a suggestion I have seen a few times in the forums. Testing and repairing this (removing or adding shims to the base of the Bosch K injection pump) requires major disassembly/reassembly and I hesitate to investigate it further until I have exhausted all other possibilities.
Now that I have frozen my fingers a few times working on it in the cold, I have decided to leave it for the winter as I can always get it started. It just doesn't seem like it should need to be cranked as much as it does to start and that is going to bug me until I can improve it. I have seen enough diesel tractor videos and read enough forum threads now to know that there are definitely little diesels that start up fairly easily in a variety of weather conditions (with allowance for basic supports like a reasonable length of glow plugs cycling if its colder weather).
NOTE: The 30 or maybe even 40 second long glow plug cycle on my tractor is a longer cycle than I have heard of but it has been consistent since I got the tractor and the plugs have all tested normal for resistance, individual function, volts coming out of the relay and volts at each plug.
Thanks for everyone's thoughts on this. If anyone has any other ideas of things I can check or try, please let me know. If you are in the same boat with your tractor, hopefully all my ramblings will have been at least a little bit helpful.
-Cheers Tractor Bros.
Overall, when I do about 3 sets of cranking for 7-8 seconds with a break of about 30 seconds in between while the glow plugs cycle, the tractor starts at somewhere around 4-5 seconds of cranking, the third time. That is in temperatures of about -5 to -8 degrees Celsius without the oil pan heater being plugged in, or -10 to -15 degrees Celsius with the oil pan heater running for 5+ hours.
When tested during the cooler weather, the starter has good consistent voltage while cranking when the glow plugs aren't operating. When I tried cranking before the glow plugs had finished their cycle, the volts at the starter dropped a below a reasonable range and the MPU threw its code again. This seems to indicate that the MPU is throwing a code due to the engine cranking a bit too slowly because of voltage drop if you crank while the plugs are still active.
During the summer, I could usually get it to start after about 10 seconds of glow plugs and minimal cranking. That seems a bit better than I remember from previous summers but...maybe I just wasn't monitoring it closely enough.
All the fuel lines and hose clamps have been replaced. The fuel filter assembly had a leak at the petcock valve. The way the lever for this valve was connected, it wouldn't sit properly in the valve housing. So the o-ring at the valve lever base wouldn't make even contact with the housing. In fact the lever wouldn't even grab the nylon valve to turn it properly. It really was a piece of junk. Aside from getting a replacement with the exact same flaw, I saw no alternative so I took off the valve lever, tapped the housing where it sat, and put a threaded steel plug in there sealed with diesel resistant loctite. Before this procedure, you could see fuel was consistently leaking out of this valve over time. It doesn't leak anymore. I don't love the solution but I am going with it for now until I get a better solution like an improved fuel filter assembly. I can only assume that I have it sealed now because there is no more fuel leaking out of the valve. After replacing all the lines and clamps and doing the best I could to seal up that faulty petcock valve, I followed the full air bleed procedure until there were no more air bubbles escaping from the various bleed points and it was just fuel coming out. Could there still be air in there some where? Perhaps.
Regardless, it seems to start pretty consistently with enough cranking and really, it always did. So the possibilities that I can think of are:
Fuel Injection Pump Losing Prime Because:
-there is still air getting in there or sitting in the line somewhere in a stubborn pocket that doesn't bleed easily
-fuel is able to flow back to the tank when the tractor isn't running and there should be a check valve in there somewhere or there is one that has never worked properly
-OR-
-the injection timing is off (This is a suggestion I have seen a few times in the forums. Testing and repairing this (removing or adding shims to the base of the Bosch K injection pump) requires major disassembly/reassembly and I hesitate to investigate it further until I have exhausted all other possibilities.
Now that I have frozen my fingers a few times working on it in the cold, I have decided to leave it for the winter as I can always get it started. It just doesn't seem like it should need to be cranked as much as it does to start and that is going to bug me until I can improve it. I have seen enough diesel tractor videos and read enough forum threads now to know that there are definitely little diesels that start up fairly easily in a variety of weather conditions (with allowance for basic supports like a reasonable length of glow plugs cycling if its colder weather).
NOTE: The 30 or maybe even 40 second long glow plug cycle on my tractor is a longer cycle than I have heard of but it has been consistent since I got the tractor and the plugs have all tested normal for resistance, individual function, volts coming out of the relay and volts at each plug.
Thanks for everyone's thoughts on this. If anyone has any other ideas of things I can check or try, please let me know. If you are in the same boat with your tractor, hopefully all my ramblings will have been at least a little bit helpful.
-Cheers Tractor Bros.
