Loved Ones - Toyota

[patrick_g]

I think Toyota is a fine car overall, but the "don't hold your breath" comment just struck me as unfortunate giving the earlier post about being upside down in water. Also, the part about missing the detrimental aspects of silent recalls seem like your were being deliberately obtuse in light of your other comments.

Please note the quoted portion of my post to which you refer. This sets the context in which my comments are to be taken and the person to which the comments were directed and was not related to the "UNDERWATER" post. At the time I wrote my post I had not read the "UNDERWATER" post and it may not have been available for me to read at the time I wrote my comments. In any case my comments were not related to anyone being suspended upside down underwater. It is unfortunate that you perceived and commented on a non existent connection between the posts.

Do not make the logical error referred to as "post hoc" AKA post hoc propter ergo hoc which is where it is assumed erroneously that something after this is because of this. Although referred to as A THREAD any given thread often has multiple sub threads running through it like a cocktail party with multiple conversations occurring simultaneously requiring observers to pay attention to which remarks are directed to what conversation. The human brain has powerful pattern matching capabilities, so powerful that it sees patterns and makes connections that may not exist or correlates events that are unrelated except for the accident of precedence.

Pat

 

[bosshoss]

I have owned exactly one Toyota but was extremely lucky I guess, l got one of the very few goods ones that at 50,000 plus miles has so far been the most trouble free car we have ever owned

Available statistics do not support the hypothesis that Toyota is "just another manufacturer, just like all the rest." !

Pat

One Toyota and 50000 miles that is impressive. I have a Chevy Silverado with 50000 miles(and 25000 of that is pulling a trailer up to 8000 pounds) and no problems AND NO RECALLS. I still say all the manufactures make quality products these days and GM or Toyota can make a bad one here and there.


What available statistics? Show me or is this keyboard hypothesis


Hey you like Toyota and I like GM, I like green tractors and you like orange tractors. That is the way it is and the way it always will be, competition make all the brands better.
The real issue here is TOYOTA is in trouble and making it worse by dragging their feet and trying to cover it up. NOT GM or FORD. This isn't about gov. loans or someone who had a bad GM or Ford years ago it is about people getting killed and hurt and the BIGGEST RECALL IN AUTOMOTIVE HISTORY.
Toyota stock is down and sales have dropped so even if you think Toyota is the best car built others are changing their minds.

 

[riptides]

The real issue is why do companies take short cuts, skirt issues, practice controlled deception, think they are above laws, etc. etc.

Why are some people in positions of authority - stupid? - ill advised? - misinformed? What? Look back on the great companies of the world, each one of them has their moment of darkness.... Why? You figure in this day and age, a defect or issue would be spotted by some ISO standard, avoided by some practice or procedure, brought to light by an artifact of history, but....noooooo ....crap still hits the fan.
Incredible, really.
Too bad for us all in the end.

 

[BobRip]

The real issue is why do companies take short cuts, skirt issues, practice controlled deception, think they are above laws, etc. etc.

Why are some people in positions of authority - stupid? - ill advised? - misinformed? What? Look back on the great companies of the world, each one of them has their moment of darkness.... Why? You figure in this day and age, a defect or issue would be spotted by some ISO standard, avoided by some practice or procedure, brought to light by an artifact of history, but....noooooo ....crap still hits the fan.
Incredible, really.
Too bad for us all in the end.

I notice that today the flaws tend to be things that occur rarely (1 in 10,000 for the throttle sticking). In the past these events tend to be more often. All of the laws and procedures cannot eliminate problems, but they can and have reduced the rate. There is no perfectly safe world and if there were we would all be so constrained (no skydiving, off road vehicles, smoking, drinking, new products, ice cream, candy and you name) that life would have no joy in it. Past a certain point safety is not worth the cost both financially and freedom wise.

 

[aczlan]

One Toyota and 50000 miles that is impressive. I have a Chevy Silverado with 50000 miles(and 25000 of that is pulling a trailer up to 8000 pounds) and no problems AND NO RECALLS.

You did not get hit in the recent heated WWF system recall?

I still say all the manufactures make quality products these days and GM or Toyota can make a bad one here and there.

I agree

The real issue here is TOYOTA is in trouble and making it worse by dragging their feet and trying to cover it up. NOT GM or FORD. This isn't about gov. loans or someone who had a bad GM or Ford years ago it is about people getting killed and hurt and the BIGGEST RECALL IN AUTOMOTIVE HISTORY.

Last I checked a recall by Ford of 14 MILLION vehicles over 10 years (15 years since the part was first used) for the same cruise control switch issue beats a recall of 9 MILLION vehicles in 6 years since the part was first used by Toyota for the biggest recall ever and on dragging their feet.

In the words of Car and Driver executive editor Mike Dushane:

The "media circus" overlooked the fact that "the numbers don't reveal a meaningful problem", with the alleged fatality risk at about 1 in 200,000 recalled Toyota vehicles, versus a 1 in 8,000 risk of a fatal car accident in any car in the U.S.

So, you are 25 times more likely to die from a fatal car crash than you are to die in a out of control Toyota
Sources: 2009/10 Toyota vehicle recalls - Wikipedia
Toyota Recall: Scandal, Media Circus, and Stupid Drivers - Editorial - Car and Driver

Do I have a Toyota? No, I drive a 1997 Volvo V90. Would I have any trepidation driving a Toyota that is under recall? A 2010 Prius; perhaps.
A car under the floormat or gas pedal recall? No, from what I have read, the pedal becomes progressively sticky, it gets worse over time. So, if you pay attention to how your car is acting you will notice it. Even when the cars have this issue they do not go to WOT on their own. They stay where you pressed the pedal to last. If you do like the Audi 5000 drivers did and mix up your pedals you may have your stick at WOT.

Frankly,you should learn how to shift any car you drive into neutral before you take it on the road. That is part of learning the where the controls are and being a safe driver.
I have had my gas pedal get stuck under the floormat coming up to a stoplight, was it a problem? Not really, I realized what happened and pulled my floormat backwards with my foot and was under control in seconds.

Is there something else missing on the Toyota cars? A software glitch that causes Toyota cars to go to WOT by themselves? Perhaps, but it has not come out yet anyplace I have seen.


Aaron Z

 

[two_bit_score]

The cover-up and lack of quick response is the real issue in this. It's not that it involves 2 million cars or two cars. People have died and Toyota has been slow to respond to get the problem corrected and addressed after trying to blow it off as long as a 'operator error' in installing floor mats. They have been able to rely on their customer's loyalty to carry them through.

 

[timswi]

Maybe traffic conditions, location, time of day, weather, speed and the 'element of surprise' among others may have contributed.

Interesting how so many are just absolutely certain they would have reacted perfectly and avoided any problem and anyone who could not have just simply taken whatever action necessary mush have just been completly an idiot.

Not to be snarkey...but..as a longtime owner of numerous classic cars from the '60's and '70's I can tell you that the possibility of a stuck throttle on a Holley double pumper is always in the back of my mind as it has happened to me. People need to get into a little bit of a state of preparation when they are driving anything. After all, you're not in your living room.

This kind of thing can happen on a quad, motocycle, tractor, car or cement truck.
They really don't teach defensive or hazardous driving anymore.

my dad cut me loose in an empty snow covered parking lot with a '76 GMC 4x4 and had me doing spin-outs and doughnuts to see what loss of control feels like.

Because of that, and other things he taught me and let me experience, I now know how to handle a vehicle in many adverse conditions. I also have an internal early warning as to when I have lost control, and how to respond. This kind of thing should be manditory for all drivers before they get their license.

 

[studor]

The government typically receives a surge in complaints following a recall. None has yet been verified.

Funny -- so what part of the words NONE HAS YET BEEN VERIFIED is confusing?

 

[aczlan]

The cover-up and lack of quick response is the real issue in this. It's not that it involves 2 million cars or two cars. People have died and Toyota has been slow to respond to get the problem corrected and addressed after trying to blow it off as long as a 'operator error' in installing floor mats. They have been able to rely on their customer's loyalty to carry them through.

Having had a floormat jam the gas pedal down in my car, it is possible to recover from that IF you think, "ok why are my RPMs not dropping" and pull up on the the throttle pedal with your foot.
That or pulling back on the floormat cleared my floormats every time they slid (most of the time they blocked the gas pedal from going down, but on occasion they caused it to stick down).

Not to be snarkey...but..as a longtime owner of numerous classic cars from the '60's and '70's I can tell you that the possibility of a stuck throttle on a Holley double pumper is always in the back of my mind as it has happened to me. People need to get into a little bit of a state of preparation when they are driving anything. After all, you're not in your living room.
This kind of thing can happen on a quad, motocycle, tractor, car or cement truck.

It can even happen on an electrically controlled throttle body. As long as there is a plate that moves to regulate the quantity of air entering the engine there is a possibility that it can get jammed in either open or closed position however remote

They really don't teach defensive or hazardous driving anymore.
my dad cut me loose in an empty snow covered parking lot with a '76 GMC 4x4 and had me doing spin-outs and doughnuts to see what loss of control feels like.
Because of that, and other things he taught me and let me experience, I now know how to handle a vehicle in many adverse conditions. I also have an internal early warning as to when I have lost control, and how to respond. This kind of thing should be manditory for all drivers before they get their license.

I agree, there are too many people who say "I have a 4wd and I dont need to worry about traction, I can go 75 on the interstate with 3" of slush on the road"
My dad took me and my sister out into a high school parking lot on sunday afternoons when we were learning to drive and had us practice avoiding things, safely stopping from 45 with the e-brake (hand controlled in the center console of that 1985 Volvo 760 TD) and even a rounds of turning in circles after a straight run to feel what it felt like to lose traction and how to recover from that.
Even now, I find a snow covered parking lot at the beginning of winter and do some <25 mph slides, spinouts and such to remind my brain and muscles how to control my car in the snow and ice.

Aaron Z

 

[uhmgawa]

Toyota stock is down and sales have dropped so even if you think Toyota is the best car built others are changing their minds.

I sincerely hope that speculation is correct.

Last month Toyota bought back my Tacoma under their 15 year
warranty covering frame rust perforation. Actually received a check
for 150% of KBB excellent condition appraisal which was considerably
more than I'd paid for it 7 years ago. I rolled what was left of that
thoroughly battle beaten soldier onto the dealer lot and drove away
in a complimentary 30 day rental.

That said, I'm still a dyed-in-the-wool Toyota truck type but quite honestly
they command far too high a premium these days. The same may be
said for other Toyota vehicles. No one wants to see folks injured due
to alleged vehicle defects but this just might knock Toyota down a few
rungs to being more competitive on price similar to their position in
the market two decades ago. I have the impression they are these
days resting on laurels and in part marketing their brand vs. tangible
value.

I indeed hope the domestic manufacturers give Toyota one h3ll of a
competitive run for its money. Not that I'm ever likely to again buy a
domestic vehicle but it will help recalibrate the price tag of those I am
inclined to purchase.