LP prices?

Fxfymn413 · Jan 27, 2022

Carl_NH said:
You don't have a location in your profile but Southern States Propane services eastern MD/VA areas? Is this your area?

You hit it..Fredericksburg, VA about 40 miles south of DC.

Thanks for the input. You are correct we do not use 500 gallons per year, but with our own tank I could call for a delivery when the purchase volume meets the required amount for a discount. In reality before Covid there were years we only spent a couple of months here any ways because we travelled a lot. If life ever gets back to normal we'll be hitting the road again and as a result using even less LP. We also use a wood stove to help keep costs lower and just because I like having that stove to sit by on a cold night.

I'm just not sure it is worth the hassle or the opportunity cost of the tank purchase. That couple thousand dollars might buy something nice for a certain person's tractor for example.

coldsteelva said:
Why or how in the world does ANYONE still use Amerigas? Is it marketing or the pretty trucks? I know they lock you in with the 'free' tank as long as you buy X gallons, but then charge ridiculous rates for the gas or charge you a crazy rental fee and still charge higher than everyone else in the region.

We started with them and dropped them within a year because of service and price issues. Sounds like they have not changed over the past 30 years.

Oaktree · Jan 27, 2022

Carl_NH said:
1/20/22 its $3.50 gallon heating oil, and $3.60 gallon Propane - pricey here!

Try living in the north country. I paid over $4/gal in November for propane. I shudder to think of what it is here now. Still at ~65% so I shouldn't need a refill before spring.
We primarily heat with wood, so I only need to fill the oil tank ever 8-10 years or so.

Carl_NH said:
Like SPUG we have OTChoice a fuel Co-Op here in NH that aggregates the customers and shops this volume commitment to dealers and we average 10-15 cents/gallon less at the time of contract vs market rates. It's worked most of the time, only a 2 years in the last 10 where oil went down over the heating season.

I signed up for one of those buying groups (might have been the same one?) a few years ago. Turns out that the only supplier they dealt with that served my area was Irving, and they gave us some BS reason why they couldn't/wouldn't install their tank at my house, so I was out whatever the yearly dues were for my membership.
We don't really use enough propane a year to qualify for any discounts...maybe 150-175 gal tops, just HW and cooking and both our stove and HW heater are relatively new and efficient.

Oaktree · Jan 27, 2022

coldsteelva said:
Why or how in the world does ANYONE still use Amerigas? Is it marketing or the pretty trucks? I know they lock you in with the 'free' tank as long as you buy X gallons, but then charge ridiculous rates for the gas or charge you a crazy rental fee and still charge higher than everyone else in the region.

We use them. I checked around last fall when out of the blue they sent me a bill for tank rental, and found their prices weren't all that much different than anyone else's...maybe 8¢/gal. I called their customer support line and raised a fuss over the rental fee and got it waived. Some others charged rental fees, others didn't.
I'll maybe switch providers someday, but the miniscule savings isn't really worth the hassle.

As far as tanks go, most suppliers around here won't fill tanks they don't own, at least not residential. YMMV.

ovrszd · Jan 27, 2022

I rent a 500 gallon tank, $36 p/year. I use 1100-1200 gallons per year. I contracted 1200 gallons in August for $1.75 p/gallon. Last year it was $1.29 p/gallon. Any carryover ends up as a dollar credit on my account applied to the next contract at the new price.

I heat a 2,448 sqft house and 1 car garage, 72F. Also propane DHW in the house, electric cooking. AC in Summer.

I also heat a 1,872 sqft shop, 69F.

Electric bill for both averaged $119 per month thru 2021.

Total cost for electrical, AC and heat for 2021 was $2,847. $7.80 per day.

No more wood cutting out of necessity for me. I now cut wood for pleasure, whenever I'm in the mood.

txdon · Jan 27, 2022

Central Texas, propane $2.85 a gallon - January 2022.

Carl_NH · Jan 27, 2022

ovrszd said:
Total cost for electrical, AC and heat for 2021 was $2,847. $7.80 per day.
No more wood cutting out of necessity for me. I now cut wood for pleasure, whenever I'm in the mood.

The cost of fuel varies greatly according to area of the country and the NE has one of the highest electric and fossil fuel costs per gallon typically. You have a lot more conditioned space, but the rates are lower there - its mostly electric rates - we pay $.22/KWH here. That's why I put in solar and mini splits to offset the heating and ac.

We heat/cool/DHW the 3100 SF house and 900 SF Garage/office or 4000 SF including propane for stove is $5.45 a day. But solar contributes to a lot of the savings of $4/day.

Otherwise w/o solar we are at $9.45 a day total cost all in.

ovrszd · Jan 28, 2022

Carl_NH said:
The cost of fuel varies greatly according to area of the country and the NE has one of the highest electric and fossil fuel costs per gallon typically. You have a lot more conditioned space, but the rates are lower there - its mostly electric rates - we pay $.22/KWH here. That's why I put in solar and mini splits to offset the heating and ac.

We heat/cool/DHW the 3100 SF house and 900 SF Garage/office or 4000 SF including propane for stove is $5.45 a day. But solar contributes to a lot of the savings of $4/day.

Otherwise w/o solar we are at $9.45 a day total cost all in.

My numbers are with two separate buildings which tweaks the amount a little. Not sure if that applies to you.

In these debates members tend to throw numbers around. If they haven't included ALL costs they are doing just that, throwing numbers around.

Then mix in burning wood. It gets really fuzzy then. I burned wood to heat my shop for 25 years. If I calculate what I could have sold the wood for I didn't save enough to justify the labor. Don't get me wrong. I like cutting firewood. I like sitting near the wood stove and drinking a Beer. But I would never say I saved a bunch of money. I did not. I would have gotten a better return on my investment by selling the wood and better insulating my buildings. But to each their own.

ericm979 · Jan 28, 2022

At my propane price and accounting for the efficiency of our wood stove and propane furnace, I figure a cord of wood replaces about $850 worth of propane. That's valuing my time at zero of course. If my land didn't generate more wood that I need just from trees that fall or need to be cut, it'd pay for me to buy split and seasoned wood for $350 a cord and burn that instead of propane.

Alan W. · Jan 28, 2022

Just had the tank filled at church. $2.319 gal tank held 570.3 gal. Thats from Danvilles Southern States.

RugerSAfan · Jan 28, 2022

With our co-op, this year it's $1.59 gal plus tax; no delivery fee; free tank.

Carl_NH · Jan 28, 2022

ovrszd said:
My numbers are with two separate buildings which tweaks the amount a little. Not sure if that applies to you.

Yes, two buildings are heat and AC - 3100 SF house, then 28x42 detached garage/office which 1000 SF is heated/conditioned. The third is the 24x36 barn and is unheated.

I've been tracking consumption a spreadsheet since 2008, for example adding mini splits increased our electric but solar covers most of this, and decreased oil consumption by 50-60 gallons on average each winter.

The biggest plus for me with mini splits was not having to muscle 4 window AC units in/out each summer and fall, as I pulled my back out and was down for a few weeks one year - can't put a $ on pain/injury.

ovrszd · Jan 29, 2022

ericm979 said:
At my propane price and accounting for the efficiency of our wood stove and propane furnace, I figure a cord of wood replaces about $850 worth of propane. That's valuing my time at zero of course. If my land didn't generate more wood that I need just from trees that fall or need to be cut, it'd pay for me to buy split and seasoned wood for $350 a cord and burn that instead of propane.

WOW, how much is propane there? A cord of good wood here is $125. How many cords do you burn a year?

ovrszd · Jan 29, 2022

Alan W. said:
Just had the tank filled at church. $2.319 gal tank held 570.3 gal. Thats from Danvilles Southern States.

That's what it costs here today if you don't have a contract.

ovrszd · Jan 29, 2022

RugerSAfan said:
With our co-op, this year it's $1.59 gal plus tax; no delivery fee; free tank.

It seems your area always has cheaper propane than most others. Why is that?

Oaktree · Jan 29, 2022

ovrszd said:
Then mix in burning wood. It gets really fuzzy then. I burned wood to heat my shop for 25 years. If I calculate what I could have sold the wood for I didn't save enough to justify the labor. Don't get me wrong. I like cutting firewood. I like sitting near the wood stove and drinking a Beer. But I would never say I saved a bunch of money. I did not. I would have gotten a better return on my investment by selling the wood and better insulating my buildings. But to each their own.

Not quite sure I follow the logic here. Do you figure your time into every DIY project you do vs hiring a pro? To me part of the beauty of heating with wood is the self-sufficiency...money you don't need to spend. The time I spend cutting/splitting wood isn't time that would otherwise be spent at a paying job.
To me it just doesn't make sense to cut wood, sell it then buy something else for heating, certainly not in a part of the country where it actually gets cold.

ovrszd · Jan 30, 2022

Oaktree said:
Not quite sure I follow the logic here. Do you figure your time into every DIY project you do vs hiring a pro? To me part of the beauty of heating with wood is the self-sufficiency...money you don't need to spend. The time I spend cutting/splitting wood isn't time that would otherwise be spent at a paying job.
To me it just doesn't make sense to cut wood, sell it then buy something else for heating, certainly not in a part of the country where it actually gets cold.

I was talking about the cost effectiveness of burning wood. In that context, yes, I place a dollar value on my labor. And on the equipment required to process the firewood. When I do that I see little financial gain.

I already quoted my heating costs. Quote yours.

Fxfymn413 · Jan 31, 2022

All this reminds me of the blurb that went around several years ago about how much money you save by burning "free" wood and then went on to list the cost of the truck, the splitter, the saws, the fuel, the time, etc. It was pretty hilarious.

I burn because I love the heat from the wood stove and I really enjoy processing the wood. I'm retired and have the time to mess with it which is not the case for everyone. I'm also fortunate to have a good friend who works with me in our wood gathering adventures and enough near by wood to keep us going.

Is it worth it money wise? Maybe not, but it does keep my heating bills lower since the central heat usually runs no more than once or twice each night. And when it's finally time to move on I can sell the splitter, saws, etc. to recover some of the cost.

ovrszd · Jan 31, 2022

Fxfymn413 said:
All this reminds me of the blurb that went around several years ago about how much money you save by burning "free" wood and then went on to list the cost of the truck, the splitter, the saws, the fuel, the time, etc. It was pretty hilarious.

I burn because I love the heat from the wood stove and I really enjoy processing the wood. I'm retired and have the time to mess with it which is not the case for everyone. I'm also fortunate to have a good friend who works with me in our wood gathering adventures and enough near by wood to keep us going.

Is it worth it money wise? Maybe not, but it does keep my heating bills lower since the central heat usually runs no more than once or twice each night. And when it's finally time to move on I can sell the splitter, saws, etc. to recover some of the cost.

Well stated. I burned wood for 25 years because I enjoyed doing it. As the years went by it became more of a chore. 3 years ago I quit relying on wood. I don't miss "needing" to cut wood. Now I cut wood when I "want" to.

A wise elderly gentleman told me years ago, "It doesn't matter what you heat a well insulated building with. And it doesn't matter what you heat a poorly insulated building with." Took me a couple decades to fully understand that statement.