LS Tractor XR4046H Broken Tie Rod Flange

[Tbolt76]

Is it possible the tie rod castle nut was over torqued when they repaired it? The tie rod ball joint should not be too tight to rotate when the wheel is turning. Maybe the tie rod isn't helping either?
Tom

 

[GManBart]

LOL this tractor, any tractor that is sold with a FEL should work on dirt with NO counterweight unless it is sold as such and then I wouldn't buy it if it did need it.

Wrong. Your user manual will tell you that counterweight is required for FEL use. Many brands specify an actual minimum weight required, but some leave it a flexible amount to be matched up with the work being done.

Saying that a cast flange is the wrong construction method tells me you don't know much about metal strength, and construction methods. Castings are traditionally used for that kind of part because they work better than machined parts. There probably isn't a normal tractor made that has those parts constructed out of anything other than castings.

Comparing the size of the steering cylinders to the tie rod flanges means nothing. The tie rods aren't a highly stressed part unless the font wheels are overloaded and you are turning. All they do is regulate the relationship between the front wheels. When one cylinder is extending, the other is contracting, so they aren't fighting one another.

The flange looks identical to the one on my R4047, and we have yet to hear of anybody breaking one on an R-series, so something strange is going on.

 

[350zmo]

Wrong. Your user manual will tell you that counterweight is required for FEL use. Many brands specify an actual minimum weight required, but some leave it a flexible amount to be matched up with the work being done.

Saying that a cast flange is the wrong construction method tells me you don't know much about metal strength, and construction methods. Castings are traditionally used for that kind of part because they work better than machined parts. There probably isn't a normal tractor made that has those parts constructed out of anything other than castings.

Comparing the size of the steering cylinders to the tie rod flanges means nothing. The tie rods aren't a highly stressed part unless the font wheels are overloaded and you are turning. All they do is regulate the relationship between the front wheels. When one cylinder is extending, the other is contracting, so they aren't fighting one another.

The flange looks identical to the one on my R4047, and we have yet to hear of anybody breaking one on an R-series, so something strange is going on.

LOL Wrong. The manual does not say have a 1000lbs on the back or your tractor or in this case tie rod flange will break. As I said if it were needed it should be sold as such. And as it is I did have a counterweight attached, the backhoe specifically, and bought it as such and was told by the dealer when I bought it I shouldn't have any problems. And also conversely the manual does not say take your counterweight or in this case backhoe off if using the FEL or your tie rod flange will break. And more importantly, that counterweight as any counterweight does indeed do is add to the stresses on that flange in a turn. It's a dynamics problem not statics a little bit of Newtonian physics too...object in motion...yaw IE moment.

Cast is traditionally used because it is a lot less expensive to machine a few surfaces than hog out a solid block of say maraging steel which is far stronger. And LOL you really need to get to know someone before you assume they don't know much about materials or construction. Just google the cast and steel strength wikis its all out there now, no need for the old strength of materials book, even the strongest cast steel alloy is less than half of various high strength steels. Cast is brittle and can't be welded. I never used cast in any of my designs but then they all had to work and work at -25F and up to +120F with solar load IE MIL-STD-810C and not the wimpy F version today and they have been in service for going on 30 years now. But I don't need my 30 years experience or my engineering degree or a finite element analysis of which I have done thousands along with all the tensile and shear tests I've done to tell me that flange is way too wimpy for being made of cast if it is indeed taking the force instead of the cylinders. Proof is in the putting it broke twice. Note I am not saying it needs to be hogged out of a block of maraging steel, a cast flange would be fine as the price of the tractor is affordable and I want to keep it that way, but it does have to be designed properly for being cast IE thick enough to handle the force and apparently its not. It could also be a manufacturing or impurity issue but even that would be ok if compensated for in more material IE thicker and wider.

A comparison IS apropos, no need for that large of a cylinder unless you need that much force and...you do, the comparison is of the amount of raw force that large of a cylinder can develop vice what the wimpy tie rod and cast flange can tolerate. The comparison lends to the idea that one cylinder should expand while the other contracts. But it doesn't. Not according to the dealer and when it broke I immediately stopped and the wheels kept pushing out all by themselves. So both cylinders were expanding. I too thought that was how those worked and asked him if there was a hydraulic problem or adjustment but he said no it doesn't work that way. Well LOL I guess he's right because it didn't, they both expanded. Now I could understand that small a flange and tie rod if they acted as a follower then that would be fine, more than sufficient. But it doesn't work that way according to the dealer. And if true as the dealer claims and what I saw supports that then that flange is simply too wimpy being made of cast to bear that kind of force. It's too bad because those massive cylinders and their attachment to the hub could easily handle that much force if one expanded and the other contracted. But it just isn't so.

Glad you mentioned that. The dealer said the hubs were a known from LS problem that they supposedly corrected for the XR's and he did say they broke in a different place on the R's. And as I said this is the third one he has seen broke, I guess this will make it the fourth unless he has had more since then. I did not ask how many previous generation R's versus this years XR's he has seen I'll ask tomorrow. The dealer said because of the problem he kept the R model hubs in stock so LOL I think that tells it right there. The implication is some of the old R series have bad batch hubs unless you have had them replaced. But the XR hubs are different so he had to order. That may imply a design change from the R to XR. And if so, that may imply that the new weak link has been found and it is that wimpy flange. Again he claims they had a bad batch and all on the same side well I guess the replacements are bad too LOL.

Agree something strange is going on and I hope LS fixes it.

 

[TSO]

Something could be out of adjustment or there could be a hydraulics issue, look at the massive size of those cylinders compared to that wimpy tie rod and flange. I asked dealer about that last time but he said no it was a bad batch just that side LOL. I still believe it is a design issue, flange is cast and way too wimpy.

LOL this tractor, any tractor that is sold with a FEL should work on dirt with NO counterweight unless it is sold as such and then I wouldn't buy it if it did need it. As it is, it has been level ground ie dirt with the backhoe attached both times. And no mention from dealer or in manual about anything different as it should be. If it is sold with a FEL and with or without a backhoe then it should work either way. Used a friends old Kubota while waiting for my LS to be fixed AND IT DIDNT BREAK.

Out of everybody I've had look at it they all agree that flange is the weak point just not beefy enough. But we did agree we would see it again in about 200 hours not 20! That lends to be an adjustment, wear or some other part also being bad like a hydraulics issue. Either way there is a lemon law in Alabama I might have to check with the lawyer to see if it applies to tractors if LS doesn't get real. I can't have this is the shop for two weeks and only use it for one.

I think this is an anomaly, and you are likely over reacting.

I put 150 mostly-loader-work hours, on my R4047 ... & this never happened. And like Gman pointed out, no one else reported it happening either.

The "bad batch"answer is possible, but I would think something else is happening that is causing the failures. Like already pointed out, could be over tightening of that nut. Hard to say ... But I would vote against the wimpy design answer.

 

[94BULLITT]

How thick is the cast where it broke?

 

[Tbolt76]

TSO,
How about a brand by brand comparison of tie rod to hub connections? Pictures could move us toward a consensus of design flaw or materials flaw. There can't be many designs out there, I'm sure many companies come close to copying each other. BTW, is this a similar problem on Case/IH or New Holland Boomers that are also made by LS? I looked at my R4041 today, I think its beefy enough, but I suppose something like this could break under unusual loads, too.
Tom

 

[Jhiphop72]

LOL Wrong. The manual does not say have a 1000lbs on the back or your tractor or in this case tie rod flange will break. As I said if it were needed it should be sold as such. And as it is I did have a counterweight attached, the backhoe specifically, and bought it as such and was told by the dealer when I bought it I shouldn't have any problems. And also conversely the manual does not say take your counterweight or in this case backhoe off if using the FEL or your tie rod flange will break. And more importantly, that counterweight as any counterweight does indeed do is add to the stresses on that flange in a turn. It's a dynamics problem not statics a little bit of Newtonian physics too...object in motion...yaw IE moment.

Cast is traditionally used because it is a lot less expensive to machine a few surfaces than hog out a solid block of say maraging steel which is far stronger. And LOL you really need to get to know someone before you assume they don't know much about materials or construction. Just google the cast and steel strength wikis its all out there now, no need for the old strength of materials book, even the strongest cast steel alloy is less than half of various high strength steels. Cast is brittle and can't be welded. I never used cast in any of my designs but then they all had to work and work at -25F and up to +120F with solar load IE MIL-STD-810C and not the wimpy F version today and they have been in service for going on 30 years now. But I don't need my 30 years experience or my engineering degree or a finite element analysis of which I have done thousands along with all the tensile and shear tests I've done to tell me that flange is way too wimpy for being made of cast if it is indeed taking the force instead of the cylinders. Proof is in the putting it broke twice. Note I am not saying it needs to be hogged out of a block of maraging steel, a cast flange would be fine as the price of the tractor is affordable and I want to keep it that way, but it does have to be designed properly for being cast IE thick enough to handle the force and apparently its not. It could also be a manufacturing or impurity issue but even that would be ok if compensated for in more material IE thicker and wider.

A comparison IS apropos, no need for that large of a cylinder unless you need that much force and...you do, the comparison is of the amount of raw force that large of a cylinder can develop vice what the wimpy tie rod and cast flange can tolerate. The comparison lends to the idea that one cylinder should expand while the other contracts. But it doesn't. Not according to the dealer and when it broke I immediately stopped and the wheels kept pushing out all by themselves. So both cylinders were expanding. I too thought that was how those worked and asked him if there was a hydraulic problem or adjustment but he said no it doesn't work that way. Well LOL I guess he's right because it didn't, they both expanded. Now I could understand that small a flange and tie rod if they acted as a follower then that would be fine, more than sufficient. But it doesn't work that way according to the dealer. And if true as the dealer claims and what I saw supports that then that flange is simply too wimpy being made of cast to bear that kind of force. It's too bad because those massive cylinders and their attachment to the hub could easily handle that much force if one expanded and the other contracted. But it just isn't so.

Glad you mentioned that. The dealer said the hubs were a known from LS problem that they supposedly corrected for the XR's and he did say they broke in a different place on the R's. And as I said this is the third one he has seen broke, I guess this will make it the fourth unless he has had more since then. I did not ask how many previous generation R's versus this years XR's he has seen I'll ask tomorrow. The dealer said because of the problem he kept the R model hubs in stock so LOL I think that tells it right there. The implication is some of the old R series have bad batch hubs unless you have had them replaced. But the XR hubs are different so he had to order. That may imply a design change from the R to XR. And if so, that may imply that the new weak link has been found and it is that wimpy flange. Again he claims they had a bad batch and all on the same side well I guess the replacements are bad too LOL.

Agree something strange is going on and I hope LS fixes it.

Cast iron can indeed be welded. Will it be as strong over time as the original cast? No. But I submit the following link.

Guidelines for Welding Cast Iron
I saw cast iron successfully welded 30 years ago when as a kid, I was doing something I shouldnt have been doing with our vintage 70's something cub cadet. (3rd gear full throttle and RR tie walls dont mix.) End result was a broken front axle. Said axle was not replaced merely welded back together and re-used. Granted thats not a high stress part normally, but my point is, cast iron can be welded.

 

[TSO]

TSO,
How about a brand by brand comparison of tie rod to hub connections? Pictures could move us toward a consensus of design flaw or materials flaw. There can't be many designs out there, I'm sure many companies come close to copying each other. BTW, is this a similar problem on Case/IH or New Holland Boomers that are also made by LS? I looked at my R4041 today, I think its beefy enough, but I suppose something like this could break under unusual loads, too.
Tom

Here's my Massey: note, Massey (Iseki) puts the steering cylinder & tie rod behind the front axle. They are built into 1 unit.

Driver's side, looking from behind the front axle:











Passenger side, looking from in front of the axle:



...
And note, that little pool under the front is drainage from a fresh power washing this evening .

 

[GManBart]

If there is a problem, I'm sur LS will sort it out.

The flanges look identical to those on the R series, and I haven't seen mention of them failing anywhere.

In fact, when I did a Google search about LS hub or tie rod flange failures, this is the only thread anywhere.

 

[AaronS]

I hope LS or the dealer resolves it to your satisfaction, and I hope it's an anomoly. I've done some heavy loader work with mine and so far so good. I now use a counter-weight that weighs in the neighborhood of 1300 to 1500 pounds, but used nothing the first several hours before I found the ballast box.