Lucky to be ALIVE!!!

   / Lucky to be ALIVE!!! #171  
Not trying to get in an argument either, skyhook is mostly correct, I'll add some comments preceded with *** and ending with ^^^ between his lines below:

Not trying to get into a debate here, so please,,don't take it that way,,
It's very sad that this happened, obviously, but why it did is also important for other's.

CM and DB are actually both right in a sense,
the solenoid on the starter has two bolts with nuts (actually 3) if these two bolts are shorted together,

*** A typical starter solenoid consists of an electromagnet coil, with a sliding armature. One end of the coil is internally connected to ground (the case of the solenoid, while the other is connected to a small external terminal . . . when positive voltage is applied to this terminal, current flows through the coil and pulls in the armature against a return spring. The distal end of the armature is connected to a conductive (typically heavy copper) bar that bridges (shorts) the two heavy contacts (the larger terminals on the exterior of the solenoid - sometimes also called a "contactor"). Note that the two heavy duty terminals are normally open. Installed on the tractor, one of these terminals will go to the starter motor positive terminal, while the other is usually wired directly to the positive terminal of the battery. These terminals will often have rubber insulation covers to prevent inadvertent shorting to ground.

Shorting the battery connected terminal to ground (as with a wrench) would cause prodigious amounts of current flow, arcing, sparks, welding etc. Shorting the other, starter motor connected terminal to ground (as with a wrench) would do absolutely nothing. Shorting these two heavy duty terminals together will typically cause a small arc (sparking) and power the starter motor.

In Gary's situation, his wrench most likely bridged or shorted (connected) these two heavy terminals together (ground was not involved at all) - period. ^^^


they will turn the starter, once you let go of these with your wrench, the starter will stop.
These two bolts are "positive charges" not negative in any way, *** Correct, however as explained above, one terminal is positive, connected to the battery and until the solenoid is energized, the other terminal is simply "open" no voltage (though if you were to check resistance with an ohm meter, you would read resistance through the starter motor windings to ground). ^^^

bridging these two bolt, will "bridge" a positive feed to the starter, *** Correct, bridging or shorting together these two terminals will energize the starter motor ^^^

BUT...
if you "accidentally" GROUND your wrench while doing this, (as in touching the starter casing),
you have now "shorted" out the solenoid, keeping a constant "bridge" between these two positive terminals, hence the continuous turning of the engine. *** No, not exactly correct - bridging the two bolts will energize the starter, TRUE. IF, while doing this, the metal wrench is allowed come into contact with tractor ground, serious arcing and current will flow to ground through the likely very hot wrench - the wrench and terminal will be MELTING! at their contact points, held grounded long enough (assuming one is wearing asbestos gloves or the wrench is now jammed in position, can also melt the battery cable, ignite its insulation, or cause the battery to explode. ^^^

This is why it's very important when starting the starter in this manner, that the wrench does not ground or touch any ground source.

*** Absolutely! In Gary's accident, his wrench was likely bridging (shorting) the two heavy contacts, causing the tractor to suddenly lurch forward. As it did so, its movement broke the connection between these contacts and the wrench, momentarily de-energizing the starter and stopping the tractor. However the pressure on the wrench from his grip caused the connection to remake, moving the tractor again, . . . repeat. Note that "grounding" these terminals did not happen in this sequence. Semantics? No . . . "shorting to ground" was not involved in this process and would not energize the starter. ^^^

Also, neither CM or DB are on my ignore list,
I believe everyone here has valuable knowledge to share, whether positive or negative.



*** BTW, bridging or shorting the solenoid "heavy" terminals, as described above, is sometimes done to start an engine when the solenoid is defective. If the solenoid is functional, and only remote activation of the starter is desired (without having to reach or turn the normal start key), then perhaps a better way to accomplish this is to jumper the *small* solenoid terminal to the positive terminal of the battery. Only a lighter gauge wire is required to do this, and doing so energizes the solenoid with low current flow, all the heavy starter current flows as normal through the solenoid's heavy duty connections, and *not* through a makeshift wrench or screwdriver!

all the best,

bumper^^^
 
   / Lucky to be ALIVE!!! #172  
If the solenoid is functional, and only remote activation of the starter is desired (without having to reach or turn the normal start key), then perhaps a better way to accomplish this is to jumper the *small* solenoid terminal to the positive terminal of the battery. Only a lighter gauge wire is required to do this, and doing so energizes the solenoid with low current flow, all the heavy starter current flows as normal through the solenoid's heavy duty connections, and *not* through a makeshift wrench or screwdriver!

Very good point. Let the solenoid contacts carry the heavy load. Just don't bounce the solenoid coil. Make swift, certain contact.
 
   / Lucky to be ALIVE!!!
  • Thread Starter
#173  
E
Its good to hear that you are getting around some. Hopefully you can keep at it and start to see improvements. Just a thought I had is that healing can sometimes creep in on you slowly so that you don't notice it. So it might be a good idea to keep a running record of how much you are able to do each day, that way you'll be able to look back and see the improvement even if your not necessarily feeling it. It may help to avoid the frustration of time.

And besides starter safety, maybe you could learn us a little more: what is dvr?
DVR is a digital video recorder. It's 16 channels and we have 10 cameras outside that record everything around there. We are in Ohio & fla. Quite a bit too. We can view these cameras too from computer or iPhone. There's not a camera in barn, but I sometimes put a trail cam in there. I was thinking of putting it back in before I left. I wished I had in a way, because the whole accident would have been recorded with time stamp & video.
 
   / Lucky to be ALIVE!!!
  • Thread Starter
#174  
I know this is a personal question, Gary...
I may Have missed it in the other post's, but...may I ask how old you are?

I'm 60. Still a young man, but I am forgetful sometimes. I had some past medical problems that has been resolved for a few years that left me with chrosis of the liver. It contributes to the confusion factor sometimes too
 
   / Lucky to be ALIVE!!!
  • Thread Starter
#175  
Not trying to get in an argument either, skyhook is mostly correct, I'll add some comments preceded with *** and ending with ^^^ between his lines below:





*** BTW, bridging or shorting the solenoid "heavy" terminals, as described above, is sometimes done to start an engine when the solenoid is defective. If the solenoid is functional, and only remote activation of the starter is desired (without having to reach or turn the normal start key), then perhaps a better way to accomplish this is to jumper the *small* solenoid terminal to the positive terminal of the battery. Only a lighter gauge wire is required to do this, and doing so energizes the solenoid with low current flow, all the heavy starter current flows as normal through the solenoid's heavy duty connections, and *not* through a makeshift wrench or screwdriver!

all the best,

bumper^^^
The soleniod had been acting up by doing nothing or sometimes spinning but not engaging starter. I was adjusting the two stage clutch, because it was not letting me engauged the PTO with engine running. I THOUGHT I could carefully snug the nut on the soleniod without touching anything else. "WRONG" the tractor had previously been in neutral, but I had tested two stage clutch after adjusting, which it then worked, but FIRGOT I had then left in gear. Very dumb assumption on my part.
 
   / Lucky to be ALIVE!!! #176  
I'm 60. Still a young man, but I am forgetful sometimes. I had some past medical problems that has been resolved for a few years that left me with chrosis of the liver. It contributes to the confusion factor sometimes too

I'm a few years younger, not by much though,
I also consider myself still young at heart, it seems you have worked hard all your life,
a farmer of sorts by the equipment I see in your sig,
I think this will help in your recovery.
It's too bad we are so far apart, I'd like to stop in and give you a helping hand.
Take care my friend.
 
   / Lucky to be ALIVE!!!
  • Thread Starter
#177  
Thanks SkyHook. Very thoughtful & nice of you. Be careful this winter up there.
 
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   / Lucky to be ALIVE!!! #178  
I know you said you had the tractor only a short time, but how many approx. hours are on it?
 
   / Lucky to be ALIVE!!!
  • Thread Starter
#179  
I know you said you had the tractor only a short time, but how many approx. hours are on it?

226 hours. But PO said he sometime turned the switch off while running it, so he wouldn't forget and leave it on. When you turn switch off all the guages go dead and no lights work. The engine will stay running until you pull the fuel cut off knob. So , I'm guessing maybe somewhere around 300 hours actual if that.
 
   / Lucky to be ALIVE!!! #180  
226 hours. But PO said he sometime turned the switch off while running it, so he wouldn't forget and leave it on. When you turn switch off all the guages go dead and no lights work. The engine will stay running until you pull the fuel cut off knob. So , I'm guessing maybe somewhere around 300 hours actual if that.

So it is like an old time tractor with no electrical fuel shutoff. Not sure how old it is, if relatively new I am surprised they could sell it here with modern regulations.

On the old time tractors the hour meter was mechanical so it did not matter if the key was off.
 

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