Making a pond with a tractor ?

[monkeybreath]

I am reading posts every night to learn as much as I can about tractors as I try to figure out what to get - meanwhile I keep adding to my list of tractor projects ( wife is even figuring out a project or two) - now thinking I may be able to put in a pond - a dozer guy gave me an estimate of $10 k for a fairly small pond - would rather have a tractor. Anyway, I have a year round spring at about 3 gpm to feed into it - would be about 8 feet deep at deepest (unless I read about ponds some more and learn it should be otherwise) and about the size of half a football field - maybe a bit bigger. Feasible with a tractor and patience ? By the way - looking at tractors in 30 HP range

 

[Anonymous Poster]

If your pond site is absolutely flat and everything has to be excavated, like mine in Florida, then I'd say no way - you can't move enough dirt fast enough. Also, it depends on where your water table is - If I tried to dig an 8' deep pond with my tractor, it would be 5' underwater before I finished.

But. located in the foothills, you should be able to find a site where you will be making a dam, then filling with surface water supply (creek or runoff), and just doing some shaping. In that case, if you have lots of time and lots of patience, you can probably do it with your tractor.

Half a football field is around 150' x 100', which is about 1/3 acre surface area. Depending on how your banks are sloped, etc., if you have to excavate the whole thing it could be as much as 2,000 to 2,500 cubic yards of excavation (I didn't do the math, just interpolated a little from the 1600 yards I'm going to have excavated for my 1/4 acre pond). You'd be moving substantially less than 1 yard each trip.

$10K sounds a little high to me, although I don't know what it includes - if he wants to use a liner, for example. I've seen prices on the 'net for $1 to $1.50 for pure excavation. I'm paying $2.50 a yard, but that includes him loading, moving and dumping all the spoil to where I need fill (house pad, barn pad, 800' road, some low areas), compacting it and grading it. Total cost will be ~$4K, for a track hoe with 53' reach and a 1.5 yard bucket, D6 dozer, loader/hoe and two dump trucks.

I'm figuring it backwards - I can use 1600 yards of fill and I can afford the $4K, so that determines the size of the pond.

 

[monkeybreath]

Thanks - perhaps I should have at least part of the work done with a dozer. We have 90 acres and in this particular part of the property there is already a wash /ravine and I would be using part of that so less dirt to move. Wont be a need to move dirt anywhere but around the site and for the dam. I did only get one quote for the dozer work - the guy was very knowledgable but I think he wanted to do more than I required. Your information was helpful. The size was a bit of a guess - I haven't figured out precisely how large it will end up being. Want to use to attract some wild life except don't want any more wild pigs - they are already tearing up lawn and more and I have learned I am not the best shot. We have A LOT OF wild pigs.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Around here, people would probably pay for the privilege of coming on the land and creating some bbq. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[RanchMan]

<font color="blue">Feasible with a tractor and patience ? By the way - looking at tractors in 30 HP range </font>

Lots of variables, but the answer is "not big enough" unless you have a lot of time. ('Course, with a lot of time, you could make one with a regular old shovel too. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

Dozer work varies from place to place, but $10K sounds steep. A cheaper (and more fun /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif) alternative would be to rent a dozer and do it yourself. Again, lots of variables, but if you get a decent size dozer (say something at least 14K lbs - although bigger = faster for this type of stuff) I could see you being able to do it in a week (+ or -). 'Round here a week of do-it-yourself dozer work runs in the $1200-$1500 range. A day of dozer work with an operator runs in the $800-1200 range. (You can see the advantage of going the DIY route.)

Anyway, you could rent a dozer for the tank (-er-- uhh- "pond") and still have some $$ left over for a tractor too. I think you'd be much happier going this way than beating your new tractor (and yourself) to death trying to dig out a third of an acre worth of dirt with an FEL. (It's a lot harder to damage a blade on a dozer than an FEL on a tractor when digging out hard dirt/rocks.)

 

[rmorgan]

Ron--

If you're thinking about an earthen dam, one thing that would be very problmeatic with a compact tractor is compacting the dam sufficiently. Our pond guy used a sheepsfoot compactor on every 12" of clay. Also, he stressed that it is important to build the dam with a keyway. Ours goes about 8-10' below the deepest point of the dam, and is a slot as wide as the dam which is built up with compacted clay. I talked to him recently and he spoke of a pond he'd been called out to look at where the dam was poorly built and has in two years settled to below the level of the emergency spillway; if water ever started pouring over the dam the hydraulic drag could be a disaster--but the dam leaks enough from poor compaction that he thought it will blow out at another location first!!

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Ron44,

Using a tractor with FEL would be a long an frustrating project for something that size. The tractor does not have enough weight to push or dig the large amounts of dirt you need to move.

If you need to dig out a lot of dirt an excavator is probably a more efficient method. Use a dozer to push the dirt dug up by the excavator. That combination may end up being faster.

Jeff

 

[centex]

While everyone here seems to say it is not feasible, one of my friends dug a pond 12' deep with a John Deere 590 tractor and the small FEL that comes with it. He spent a total of $15K for the tractor, and cleared 15 acres with it along with digging the pond. At the end of this he had 300 hours on the tractor and has a pond full of catfish. I should add that he retired early and had a lot of time to spend on the project(s). I think it is feasible to dig a pond with a small tractor if your have reasonable digging condtitions and the time to spend on the project and are not in a hurry.

 

[rmorgan]

Centex's friend's feat sounds great--what an achievement!! As to "reasonable digging conditions," would probably be harder here in Ohio, where the subsoil is so clay-ey that you can pretty much throw pots with it straight out of the ground, and where there are a lot of bedrock strata (putting in our pond necessitated taking out a limestone contour an average of 6" thick). One suggestion--county extension agents are often very knowledgeable about installing ponds in the local area they serve, and love to impart their knowledge to anyone who asks. They can be an outstanding resource.

 

[gerard]

I had a farm pond that had filled in over years and I wanted to dig it out deeper and bigger. I probably could have done it with my tractor but it would not have been worth the time, wear and tear on the tractor, and I would have had to keep pumping it out. I hired a guy with an excavator for $100/hour. In 6 hours he did what would have taken me weeks. Dug done 8-9 feet, about 50 foot round. Right tool for the right job. Have it dug and you can do the finish work with your tractor.

 

[Dahammer]

Could you put in a pond with a compact tractor sure you could! You could put in a pond with a shovel if you have enough time...I would use a dozer and have it done in a weekend..........

 

[John_Mc]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( While everyone here seems to say it is not feasible, one of my friends dug a pond 12' deep with a John Deere 590 tractor and the small FEL that comes with it.)</font>

You didn't say how big the pond was. An "Uncle-In-Law" of mine dug what he called a pond with his Ford 1710 w/FEL and backhoe. I call it more of an oversized puddle (though it was probably 8 or 10 ft deep when first dug... I'm sure it has slumped somewhat by now and is not near as deep as when it was dug a few years ago).

If you are looking for a decorative/landscaping type of thing, that is definitely do-able with a compact tractor. If you're looking for a decent swimming hole, or something to attract waterfowl, you really need to be looking at a dozer.

John Mc

 

[Anonymous Poster]

There are quite a few web sites with info on ponds, including construction. A Google search is worthwhile, if you haven't already done it.

SnowRidge

 

[jinman]

Ron, I'd say you could use a spoon to dig a grave. When you finished, both you and the spoon would be "dead." There is now way I'd even consider digging a pond with any Ag or CUT type tractor. Take a drive around the area where you live and look for ponds about the size you'd like to have. Stop and ask these folks how their pond was put in and what equipment was used. I'll bet you not a single one was put in by using only a tractor.

Okay, here's my story.... I have a friend who rented a large construction backhoe and built a dam across a large gully on his property. He was careful to put down 6" of soil and then compress it by driving back and forth over it with the backhoe. Everything was fine until the first big rain. He said he almost cried when every square yard of dirt in the dam washed out. It was a complete loss. He called in someone with a dozer to redo the dam and it's still holding today. In my case, I had a dam which had failed and I tried to repair it with a tractor. 1st rain...dam washed out again. Hired a dozer to fix it and it's still solid today.

Ron, it looks easy, but it's so important to have the right equipment and a professional who knows what he is doing when he builds your pond and dam. I think your $10k quote was high, but you could easily spend twice that much on a tractor and put in hundreds of hours only to end up with both a broken tractor and a broken dam. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[monkeybreath]

Well, I just came in and caught up with all of your sound advice. I will contact Fish and Game as I understand they have resources to assist with this and make other referals, and I will get a few dozer quotes. That way, I can do other work with my tractor (assuming I have one by then) while the pond is being built - may even be able to make it bigger now - If I am not going to attempt it with a tractor. By the way, what is a "keyway"? Anyway, thanks for all of the help.

 

[jinman]

Pond Dam Info

Ron, here is a link to a site that has some really good basic info on pond dams. I'm sure there are more if you search the internet. I believe the "keyway" referred to in another post is called a "core trench" at this website. Anyway, its a trench dug deeper than the lower pond depth and backfilled with clay and compacted to stop or slow seepage. It's the first thing you do in building a dam and probably the most important to get it to hold water over the long term.

I'm glad you are thinking of a dozer. You'll be much happier with the result. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[EddieWalker]

I would strongly urge you not to contact any government authority in California. Once you open that door the $10,000 will seem cheap.

I managed a ranch near Pleasonton CA for a dozen years and we had more problems with the various government and do gooders than you'd believe.

If you start to modify a water source you will have to prove that you're not affecting the environment or ecosystem in any way. We had to prove that an endangered salamander didn't exist to grade the roads we already had.

You will also have to prove that everything down stream of your new pond will not be affected by building the pond. Is there livestock around? This is becomeing a huge issue with water runnoff and the affect they have on the fish down stream. Are you willing to conduct and environmental impact study on the effects your pond will creat on the fish spawning down stream form your pond?

Never let them in the door! It's not their money they are spending and it is their job to create more work for themselves.

One solution to the pond issue is it already exists. It might be deteriorating and in need of repair (hint). Maybe it has been covered by brush and you just cleared the brush from it and now that it's visible and exposed to the arieal photos they take of your land, you can explain how it's always been there (hint).

I left California last year and discovered Texas. It's a different world. Be very careful and good luck.

 

[jinman]

I think you meant to reply to Ron44, but he'll probably get your message. I'm a native texan, and as such, would like to say, "Welcome to Texas!" /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[JRP]

My friend dug his catfish pond with his 70 hp Zetor. He bought a good heavy box blade (1200 lb) and could pick up a loader bucket and a box blade load each pass. He lined his pond with poly.

I calculated it would take 4400 yards to dig 100 x 150 x 8 feet. If it took you all of 10 minutes to move a yard, 4400 yards would take 74 hours. I have 60 hp and my Gannon box blade is rated to move 25 cu ft or just under one yard. The dirt is about 10" above the box when the box is full and I'm dragging. If you mounded the walls up 4' tall you will be digging down much less than 8'. Perhaps half the depth. (If you have a bunch of big rocks then all bets are off.) The compacting thing is something I know nothing about. For the difference between a $2000 box blade and a $10000 pond you might be able to have a roller built. I have pulled an 18,000 pound roller with my tractor and it (tractor) is a bit light. I'll probably load the tires soon.

Keep in mind that many of the posters on this site have compact tractors that are like riding mowers on super steroids. Of coures this is a compact tractor site. When you get to a 70 - 90 hp tractor you can get much more work done. Read the review on the Kubota M9000. Something like twice the weight and three times the horsepower for 25% more $. If you want a tractor to mow the front yard with a belly mower and lift the fire wood up to the back door the yes, your tractor will be too small.

If you buy a tractor, remember that the tractor and attachment are a system and will work only as well as the poorer part. A $20K new tractor with a $400 400# box blade will perform very poor compared to a $8,000 used tractor and a good $2000 1200# Gannon box blade. Same true for most other attachments. Buy quality.

We started building a crossing over a river slew. My thoughts are that if it does not work, then I'll pay for a bulldozer. In the mean time I used the project to rationalize a good box blade that should serve me the rest of my life. It has taken longer than a contracted crossing, but I work on it only one or two hours at a time and am having a blast. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I can drive across it now with my truck and it is 3' above the water.

Also, some used backhoes sell in the $6,000 to $8,000 range.

Best of luck.

Jim

 

[Gary_in_Indiana]

<font color="blue"> some used backhoes sell in the $6,000 to $8,000 range </font>

I see the big Case 580's and the Deere equivalents all the time at auction and they seem to bring $10,500 up to $13,000 consistently with most of them in the $11,200 to $12,500 range. I'd think you could buy one, use if for what you need and turn around and sell it without losing much if anything. I bet if you didn't incur any repair expenses while you had it then cleaned it up and put some fresh paint on it you could probably make money on it.

Of course, to be fair, I do that kind of thing on a regular enough basis I tend to think anyone can do it. Even if you buy at the high end, sell at the low end and spend a couple grand on it while you have it you're still thousands ahead of the $10,000 to have it done. Besides that, you get the satisfaction of doing it yourself and can probably find some other uses for a machine like that while you have it besides the pond.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I hope this helps. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif