Making your own hay not profitable

sweettractors · Jun 21, 2004

I have a brother-in-law here in Ky that clears at least 10K anually with 1 acre of U-Pick Strawberries and 10 acres of pasture for calves that he buys just as they are weined and takes them to about 875 lbs. He is a excellent manager and I cant remember the last time that he lost a calf. He does buy all of his feed (Native Orchard Grass/Timothy/Red Clover 40 lb square bales @ $1 per bale and Ear Corn out of the field at $2.50 per bushel last fall--This is typical in this area. His wife is a mail carrier and he is retired from a factory job. On the other hand I have neighbors that are poor managers that milk 30 head and have 3 acres of tobacco and wont clear $10 annually--Ken Sweet

Sweet Farm Equipment LLC *New First Choice Disc Mowers and Hay Tedders for your Hay*

cowboydoc · Jun 21, 2004

When I was in school I had a place that was only 10 acres. I trained 5-7 horses a month and usually had 6-10 calves. I had a kid that I gave lessons to and let ride in exchange for doing chores and cleaning stalls. I used to clear $2500 a month on 3-4 hours work/day. There are certainly niches to make money on small acreages.

tough451 · Jun 21, 2004

Though my 45 acres is not a hobby farm I could make a living off the Poultry house but as Cowboy doc say's Im trying to make all I can off my land to make it pay for it self much faster as I hate owing the bank.
The study makes some sense none of us could justify all new equipment at least I cant.( I do work full time for the Insurance) Once my fencing is complete I want have much hay ground left maybe one cut a year.
I could maybe rent land but thats another expense.
For now I will continue sharing equipment with my dad and brothers,and buying extra if I need it. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

sweettractors · Jun 21, 2004

I used to clear $2500 a month on 3-4 hours work/day. There are certainly niches to make money on small acreages

I have days that I wish that I still had 25 cows and 1 bull in my cow/calf operation. I can remember when I was that size, going 8 years in a row without a cow or calf lost and now with 200 brood cows and a small Registered Charolais seedstock herd, Myself, my son and some hired help cant meet those old records that I set 25 years ago--Ken Sweet
Sweet Farm Equipment LLC *Used Mechanical Vegatable Harvesting Aid $995*

Libertine · Jun 21, 2004

cowboydoc:

Thanks for reply - and correction of what happened RE hay in Missouri. Just goes to show can't rely much on what you hear, or, rather, someone's interpretation of it.

I'd have to disagree with you on the labor issue. 

Perhaps I didn't express myself very good. What I meant was someone haying and inputing a $21 income to themselves (as a theoretical expense to the business for owner labor) vs. the owner working outside for wages to earn the same $21, which would, indeed, require something around $35 or more to NET out that $21 in pocket. The owner of a business has many opportunities to shift income in such a way as to reduce how much he has to earn. For example, let's say a carpenter buys an old fixer upper, invests 1,000 hours and $10,000. He then sells the house for a $20,000 gain. So his "wages" were $20 hour, but he is taxed as a capital gain, and no doubt, had tool expenses (and with ACR 100% deductible). For him to earn $20 net for those 1,000 hours as an employee, he would have to earn something around $35,000 to actually put $20,000 in his pocket.

My point being, is that "labor" expense is different for an owner and, although it may very well be included in government surveys, does not always reflect the reality of a particular situation.

The real point I was trying to make was that the less external dollar inputs required, the less vulnerable you are on variations in the marketplace (for hay, or anything else). I am not arguing here for autarchy for the sake of autarchy, but rather to minimize risk. From your comments, you seem to feel the opposite. If I am reading your post correctly, you are negative on your hay production, but still do it. Hmmmmm.

JEH

PS 5400 acres doesn't seem like a small business operation to me, let's see, that's over 8 square miles.

slowrev · Jun 22, 2004

CowboyDoc,
Yes both of my friends have about 300 acres each and raise cattle and hay to feed them. One also has about 100 meat goats. They do buy suplemental feed in the winter. Pellets, etc, but otherwise they raise all of their cattle feed and don't have to buy any hay. This is their total income/business. They are not getting ritch, but living a lifestyle they enjoy, farm life with no commute, city traffic, jerk of a boss, etc. Been hard on haying around her in KY this year so far, too much rain..... We usually get 3 cuttings of hay a season here. I am going to be raising about 10 acres of Alfalfa next year to sell in small bales to the horse people around Lexington next year, they pay nice for small bales of alfalfa, I have most of what I expect to get already sold /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

We don't farm/ranch on your scale, but do ok and enjoy it which is the most important thing. By using used equipment we do more repairs than if we had new, but then we have more time than money /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Just check out that hay equipment before the season starts, even if it is newer, Don't want a breakdown in the middle of rolling with rain on the way /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Enjoy life...FARM

cowboydoc · Jun 22, 2004

My point being, is that "labor" expense is different for an owner and, although it may very well be included in government surveys, does not always reflect the reality of a particular situation.

I agree with you on that point. If you are making square bales though you are going to need alot of labor. Round bales can be done with a one man operation.

I'm not down on haying I am just always looking for ways to make things more profitable. If I lived down south or in the southeastern states where you could year round graze I would put everything I could into grazing and definitely not hay as much. Problem here is that you only have six months of grazing and growing. Only choice really is to hay to make the maximum use of your ground and put as many cattle in production as possible. And then with the weather here you lose alot of good hay that if you were grazing you wouldn't lose. Not to mention the cost of equipment for haying large operations.

As far as ground goes I'm not very big trying to make a good living at it. I've got enough ground in Iowa, about 1900 acres, that I could maybe make a living doing it but I sure wouldn't be able to do much. In Idaho the ground I have is mostly grazing ground. There's about 500 acres of irrigated hayground but the rest is just grazing and it takes 20-30 acres for a cow/calf pair. The reason things work there is all of my family has their places right around mine that we are able to share equipment and they take care of most of my place. There are guys out there that have 20,000 acre places and still have to have a town job to make ends meet. Even though it looks like I have alot of ground the money that it makes every year isn't alot. Everything I do make I put right back into equipment, livestock, or more ground. My goal is someday to retire and make a decent living at it but that won't be anytime soon as the only way that is going to happen is if everything is paid off.

Libertine · Jun 22, 2004

cowboydoc:

If you are making square bales though you are going to need alot of labor 

I was under the impression (blush, blush at my ignorance) that a square baler could mount a "thrower" out the rear chute that pitched the bales into a following trailer. Just for grins, in January I bought an old (but in working condition) McCormick baler. The manual showed that as an option. If you off loaded the trailer in bulk wouldn't that reduce individual handling (of course, they wouldn't be as neatly stacked). But, guess that's not a good idea? (Sold the McCormick baler for a couple hundred profit after I asked myself, why do I have that sitting around since I have no hay to bale!!!).

I've got enough ground in Iowa, about 1900 acres, that I could maybe make a living doing it but I sure wouldn't be able to do much. 

Must be real different in the NW part (I deduce that's where you are). Spent a week in Iowa last year (SE quadrant) including a few days at the State Fair in Des Moines. To an untutored eye, the land we went through was some of the richest, most fertile looking I've ever seen. It was beautiful land. I remember passing one place where the guy was cutting into a hill (I guess for a garage) and the whole thing was topsoil!

There are guys out there that have 20,000 acre places and still have to have a town job to make ends meet. 

Jeez, you'd think that in 30 square miles there'd be something valuable and worth exploiting. Something. Just goes to show how little I know.

 . . . the only way that is going to happen is if everything is paid off. 

Ah, the joys of owing the bank. I wonder if a person couldn't do as well with a 1/4 section of rich, fertile land that was paid for. Sure be a lot less stress and strain. Never having had the urge for empire myself, it's difficult for me to relate to. Was at a breakfast meeting last Friday (Mayor & etc there). All they could talk about was how many new businesses they were bringing into town. As though the purpose of life is to build ever larger shopping centers. Nothing wrong with that of course. But I've always found that adjusting expenses to available means - living below my means - always seemed to offer more sense of freedom, time to live in the mind, time to explore. But that's just me. Fifty years from now, most of the people in that room are going to be dead. I certainly will be. So enjoy while you can.

What has all that to do with haying? Very little, except everything is connected. You make hay to feed cattle to sell for money to buy more cattle/land (or whatever) to . . . or, on it goes, one thing leads to another.

Good luck. You seem like a nice guy who deserves to get what he wants out of life.

JEH

tough451 · Jun 22, 2004

Around here square bales are put in the barn, Round bales are not on most farms. Yes it would be better if they were but than you have another expense of a building to house Big bales. Even if you have a bale thrower you still have more hands on labor in square bales so unless you have a stack wagon and a building to put them in Round bales are the way to go.
If you can afford to make you own hay have the time and equipment to make it and you enjoy it than by all means make your own. For me I enjoy it but dont meet any of the other critera.
Cowboydoc is not bashing making hay he just stated a fact he read and shared it with us it doesnt make him wrong or right just informed. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

HayDR · Jun 22, 2004

According to AEM industry figures for the last 15 years round balers have out sold square balers 4-1 in North Carolina. 90% of the hay equipment sold in NC is sold West of Raleigh.