Many scenarios to start haying -- will this one work?

[kfvintx]

I know it has been asked many times and discussed even more than that, but I thought "how about one more" but with some twists.

I have about 70 acres currently planted in good coastal hay. Has been for many years and produced hay even last year with drought here in TX. Only one cut at very end but at least got something. Land is owned and paid for with only property taxes owed each year.

I also have JD 4105 tractor for misc jobs around the ranch including hay spear for moving round bales. I have small monthly payment for this, but would have regardless.

I don't live at the ranch so livestock is not an option right now so I will be selling all hay. This will be first year really for me so just looking for someone to tell me where my math is a complete pipe dream or if close to reality.

With 70 acres producing average 6 ton per acre for the year I should have 420 ton or 840 large rolls (4x5 weighing about 1,000 lb each). I have agreement with person to cut, rake and bale for half so I'm left with 420 bales. Last year prices were ridiculous and sold what I had at $100 each. For this I'm assuming more average price of $50 each for total of $21k per year.

Now for the reason I'm wanting reality check on this operation is my cost.... unfortunately it comes before the income in way of fertilizer. Based on soil samples I know what I need and have quote of $684/ton :confused2: which I plan to put 100lb per acre so I need 3.5 ton for total of $2,400. Free use of applicator to pull behind truck so no cost to apply.

Does this make sense and really how it might work out? The cost of tractor is a given and only additional cost will be diesel used to move them from field to barn (already exists and good for hay storage). No cost for hay equipment or break down or anything like that. No labor invovled except for my time to move once baled. My only real cost is fertilizer but before I spend that I would like some of the great wisdom at TBN to confirm my general business approach to it.

I know I'm not the first to think about testing the water of getting into this and many stories of being careful and if easy everyone would do it and many other useful warnings...... but my circumstances have me getting into without much risk that I can see right now.

I have another 30 acres planted in coastal that needs to be cleaned up from weeds and mesquite and prickly pear to increase production as well. And at some point I'm thinking it makes sense to own the equipment but that is an entirely different thread.

Hopefully a few of you are still reading at this point and will share your wisdom. :laughing:

Thanks.

 

[maleaco]

Good luck!

 

[SandburRanch]

From a business perspective your agreement needs to be in contract form.

Otherwise your plan sounds reasonable and we're hoping the rain falls in a timely manner.:thumbsup:

 

[MotorSeven]

You made $42K last year on half:thumbsup:. I'm a little slow, are you thinking about buying all the hay equipment and doing it all yourself? If so, yes you could go out and by brand new equipment(highly recommended) and take a crack at it this year. Baler-$19K
V-rake-$5K
Tedder-$4K
Cuttter-$10K

But, I hate to bear bad news...but you tractor is too small for the baler. For 70 ac(I cut about 40 and split the work with a neighbor w/his tractor) you really need a 70 horse and a 10.5' cutter(disc or drum). If you have help, then your JD could pull the rake and tedder, while the bigger tractor pulls the cutter and any other implement.

If it were me, I'd pay for the fertilizer or split the cost with the guy doing the work.....even $20K on a regular season is a win win. 4x4 rolls here go for $8-20, so we roll our own....no meat on that bone for anyone else.

 

[kfvintx]

You made $42K last year on half:thumbsup:. I'm a little slow, are you thinking about buying all the hay equipment and doing it all yourself? If so, yes you could go out and by brand new equipment(highly recommended) and take a crack at it this year. Baler-$19K
V-rake-$5K
Tedder-$4K
Cuttter-$10K

But, I hate to bear bad news...but you tractor is too small for the baler. For 70 ac(I cut about 40 and split the work with a neighbor w/his tractor) you really need a 70 horse and a 10.5' cutter(disc or drum). If you have help, then your JD could pull the rake and tedder, while the bigger tractor pulls the cutter and any other implement.

If it were me, I'd pay for the fertilizer or split the cost with the guy doing the work.....even $20K on a regular season is a win win. 4x4 rolls here go for $8-20, so we roll our own....no meat on that bone for anyone else.

No, not buying any hay equipment right now. I know my current tractor is too small and I figure just paying for fertilizer and going in halves with someone is good way to get started and learn a bit. Bonus is having little risk with no major machinery investment.... although one could argue mother nature is a large risk. I'm thinking I could pay for fertilizer a couple times a year and still make a little money in the end after splitting. Not gonna retire on it I know, but more of a learning experience without losing money.

Some day I will get greedy and buy all the machinery and then the questions will really start :laughing:

 

[Redneck in training]

You need to split the fertilizer cost with the partner. I do crop 50/50 with my neigbor for the same reason. I have only small tractor. Spraying, seed, fertlizer, combining etc is paid from whatever we get when we sell and what is left is divided 50/50.

 

[D7E]

Hay sold well this year what about the years when it's $20 a bale or less ?

Keep taking the half and watch and learn .

 

[foreman Etexas]

You sure 100lbs an acre is enough,I put atleast 300/400lbs an acre. As for the moving the bales part,just sell them out of field,for alittle cheaper. Were you located at in Texas? I hope this year goes better but may need some....

Vermeer 5x4 baler "loaded out" $23,240
Vermeer 10 wheel rake $3,500
Krone 7'10 cutter $8,150
Krone 9'2 cutter $8,900
I just got the prices today,thinking about getting my own,just so I can do it when I wont,if price of baling goes up anymore,i will just buy feed and do away with hay all together and run cattle on pastures...

 

[rambler]

There is a lot of risk in farming, and hay is riskier than most. You have extra good year, and some average years, and some dismal years and years.... Don't base your projections on one extra good year.

But yes, that's how it works. I think you are smart to continue the 50/50 agrangement, with the price of diesel and iron these days it's hard to find such a favorable deal for the landowner any more. I would not try to renegociate for the fert to be split as well, I think that would open up a total different arangement.... You might find yourself with an offer of 25% for you, 75% for the custom farmer.......

I'm very surprised 100 lbs of fert is enough, I would not be surprised if you needed 2 - 2.5 times that amount to keep from mining your soils, and to keep enough N on to get a good yield? I'd watch that closely, what blend of fert did you get, how much _actual_ nutrients are you gtting in that 100 lbs? It seems light.

--->Paul

 

[smstonypoint]

I agree with other posters that your fertilizer application rate seems way too low. Are you sure that you are interpreting the results of the soil sample test correctly? The soil sample tests I am familiar with ask the farmer to indicate the crop he/she will be growing.

There are Social Security and other tax issues associated with crop-share leases. You need to check out Leasing Arrangements and Self-employment (Social Security) Tax - File C2-41 March 2010

Steve

 

[flusher]

First thing to do is get soil testing done to pin down how much fertilizer you actually will need for whatever's growing now or for whatever you plan to plant in the future. You can get into big trouble guessing here. Dry land hay farming in Texas seems to me to be a crap shoot at best--weather variables, hay market prices, etc. If I were to get into large scale haying, I'd do irrigated alfalfa like my neighbor does on 30 acres. Irrigation removes a large part of the weather variable connected with dry land haying.

Otherwise, you have a good scenario--learn haying from an experienced partner who has the large, expensive equipment until you're ready to go it alone. And keep detailed records so you know your costs to the penny.

Good luck

 

[kfvintx]

You sure 100lbs an acre is enough,I put atleast 300/400lbs an acre. As for the moving the bales part,just sell them out of field,for alittle cheaper. Were you located at in Texas? I hope this year goes better but may need some....

Vermeer 5x4 baler "loaded out" $23,240
Vermeer 10 wheel rake $3,500
Krone 7'10 cutter $8,150
Krone 9'2 cutter $8,900
I just got the prices today,thinking about getting my own,just so I can do it when I wont,if price of baling goes up anymore,i will just buy feed and do away with hay all together and run cattle on pastures...

My quote is for 33-6-12 blend. My soil sample from 4 different areas indicates I need between 95-100 lbs of N per acre. In speaking with country ag agent and several fertilizer companies that amount should be applied through the year. I plan to fertilize 3 times during the year (reading back maybe I wasn't clear about my intention for that). So over the course of the year I will be applying 300 lbs and with 33-6-12 will get me to the 100 lb of N per acre along with replenishing other nutrients. Does this sound right?

I'm in Stephenville. Those prices look about right from what little research I have done. I would also have to buy larger tractor to run that equipment which for right now doesn't make sense. I will keep you posted through the year or feel free to post/IM me if you need any during the year.

 

[foreman Etexas]

My quote is for 33-6-12 blend. My soil sample from 4 different areas indicates I need between 95-100 lbs of N per acre. In speaking with country ag agent and several fertilizer companies that amount should be applied through the year. I plan to fertilize 3 times during the year (reading back maybe I wasn't clear about my intention for that). So over the course of the year I will be applying 300 lbs and with 33-6-12 will get me to the 100 lb of N per acre along with replenishing other nutrients. Does this sound right?

I'm in Stephenville. Those prices look about right from what little research I have done. I would also have to buy larger tractor to run that equipment which for right now doesn't make sense. I will keep you posted through the year or feel free to post/IM me if you need any during the year.

I worked on a ranch just outside HICO putting in a pipe-line,it was on the highway going to fairy,I stayed in stephenville for a couple months,I know the drive really well. As for fertilizer I wish I could use only 100lbs but if you can get by with that,thats great. On my 30ac. I usually spend up to 1800,well that was last years price. I have my own spray rig and been tinkering around with different fertilizers,I think im about to pull the trigger and some used equipment well it done 40acres last year,the owner moved back to Cali.and left it for local dealer to sell. Used baler,cutter,rake 26,000 or all new 34/35,000,humm I cant deside...What size tractor you running now?

 

[kfvintx]

I have JD 4105 - 41 hp / 33 PTO. Not big enough to run equipment I want. I don't have spray rig yet either but fertilizer supplier has buggy trailer at no charge to spread that pulls behind truck. Will need spray rig for weedkiller to follow soon.... just need to decide what size and everything. I have no experience with spray rig so lots to figure out.:confused2:

I'm sure my plan for putting down only 100 lb is on the light side but I'll see how it does and continue. At least reduce my cash flow until first cut.

 

[rambler]

300 lbs per year is a little more in line. 99-18-36 actual applied over the year is something to work with.

--->Paul

 

[foreman Etexas]

I have JD 4105 - 41 hp / 33 PTO. Not big enough to run equipment I want. I don't have spray rig yet either but fertilizer supplier has buggy trailer at no charge to spread that pulls behind truck. Will need spray rig for weedkiller to follow soon.... just need to decide what size and everything. I have no experience with spray rig so lots to figure out.:confused2:

I'm sure my plan for putting down only 100 lb is on the light side but I'll see how it does and continue. At least reduce my cash flow until first cut.

I got a 300gallon with 21 ft boom,has worked great.

 

[kfvintx]

I got a 300gallon with 21 ft boom,has worked great.
View attachment 258382View attachment 258383

I asked about your rig in your other post about going "green". Do you mind sharing other details about it -- where did you get it? Would you buy there again? Price? I think I need something a little larger for my place but price seems to go up more.

Thanks.

 

[foreman Etexas]

I asked about your rig in your other post about going "green". Do you mind sharing other details about it -- where did you get it? Would you buy there again? Price? I think I need something a little larger for my place but price seems to go up more.

Thanks.

Yes,I really like Normangee Tractor kenneth,my salesman really good guy to deal with. I believe it was in the 3,600 range,has the up-graded pump but I would have to pull the reciept and check it for sure. Depending on how rough it is,21ft running 5mph can make up some ground.

 

[Briana03]

I moved your thread to the new Haying forum!