MAPP Gas replacement

[Raised on a Deere]

I posted this question on Garage Journal and got some really good information but I still could use some practical advice on how to install my AC for yet another charity case and also in my new home. Around 2006 I installed some split systems for some charity cases but also in my home. I used MAPP gas torch which was barely adequate for brazing the 7/8 copper line set on mine. I used nitrogen while brazing and system has not leaked in 12 years. Some of the welds were not pretty but got them sealed. The replacement MAPP gas will not get the job done I am pretty sure because it sure is not as much heat or as hot. MAPP went out of production sometime in 2008. It's MAPP Pro now and not as hot.

If I can avoid getting a acetylene rig I would like to although the turbo torch looks like my best alternative for brazing copper pipe, it doesn't require oxygen.

The reason for this post is just to catch the benefit the experience of someone who is succeeding in brazing HVAC line sets with MAPP Pro or other none acetylene means by using some tricks like insulated brazing site enclosures or fire brick or what ever. I have been thinking about fabricating some metallic surrounds that will ventilate but still hold heat on joint to speed up the weld so I don't heat things downstream and up stream too much.

I keep telling myself to quit whining and just get the tool but acetylene rig cost for a one time use just sitting around taking up space keeps making me balk. When the time comes in a few weeks I will just do what ever I have to do but I am pretty sure I am not the only person who is competent to do their own systems except for having the brazing rig, that has solved this better than I have so far.

 

[/pine]

I posted this question on Garage Journal and got some really good information but I still could use some practical advice on how to install my AC for yet another charity case and also in my new home. Around 2006 I installed some split systems for some charity cases but also in my home. I used MAPP gas torch which was barely adequate for brazing the 7/8 copper line set on mine. I used nitrogen while brazing and system has not leaked in 12 years. Some of the welds were not pretty but got them sealed. The replacement MAPP gas will not get the job done I am pretty sure because it sure is not as much heat or as hot. MAPP went out of production sometime in 2008. It's MAPP Pro now and not as hot.

If I can avoid getting a acetylene rig I would like to although the turbo torch looks like my best alternative for brazing copper pipe, it doesn't require oxygen.

The reason for this post is just to catch the benefit the experience of someone who is succeeding in brazing HVAC line sets with MAPP Pro or other none acetylene means by using some tricks like insulated brazing site enclosures or fire brick or what ever. I have been thinking about fabricating some metallic surrounds that will ventilate but still hold heat on joint to speed up the weld so I don't heat things downstream and up stream too much.

I keep telling myself to quit whining and just get the tool but acetylene rig cost for a one time use just sitting around taking up space keeps making me balk. When the time comes in a few weeks I will just do what ever I have to do but I am pretty sure I am not the only person who is competent to do their own systems except for having the brazing rig, that has solved this better than I have so far.

Always used what is called a "B Tank"...it's a single tank of acetylene that draws oxygen via the torch head...much cheaper to rent than a OA rig...if you know any plumbers they probably have one in their trunk...they are great for silver solder...Mapp gas is OK but the B Tank is what most pros use...

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Early in my AC&R career I silver brazed refrigerant lines up to 1 1/8" with a B tank and air entrainment torch like Pine above. It took the biggest tip made for that torch; had huge ball of fire and was real slow to get it hot enough. Obviously it is not good in tight places unless you want to create a fire in the structure. O/A set up is the best, all you need is the light duty one sold by HF. Tips are compatible with Victor so you can get other sizes. Only cheap *** employers provides the B tank set up. I rapidly moved into commercial/industrial work and that was the end of the b tanks except for soft soldering and the leak detector function; back then the torch handle accepted a leak detector. They were pretty good and sensitive but electronic and now some of the sonic units are better; with the the new non-chlorine refrigerants it does't work. One problem with O/A is a lot of folks tended to overheat the copper after using the B tank set up.

Ron

 

[dragoneggs]

Early in my AC&R career I silver brazed refrigerant lines up to 1 1/8" with a B tank and air entrainment torch like Pine above. It took the biggest tip made for that torch; had huge ball of fire and was real slow to get it hot enough. Obviously it is not good in tight places unless you want to create a fire in the structure. O/A set up is the best, all you need is the light duty one sold by HF. Tips are compatible with Victor so you can get other sizes. Only cheap *** employers provides the B tank set up. I rapidly moved into commercial/industrial work and that was the end of the b tanks except for soft soldering and the leak detector function; back then the torch handle accepted a leak detector. They were pretty good and sensitive but electronic and now some of the sonic units are better; with the the new non-chlorine refrigerants it does't work. One problem with O/A is a lot of folks tended to overheat the copper after using the B tank set up.

Ron

Thanks for the education, Ron. My limited experience with O/A was screwing around with my ex FIL's set up. I am impressed that some can control the flow as required and weld nicely. I wasn't good at it. I did like cutting with it until I finally got a plasma cutter years (decades) later.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Propylene could be used. But nothing is as hot as Acetylene really when it comes down to brazing.

 

[yomax4]

You really should consider more than 1 option. I like the Turbo torch with Propane for some applications, B tank for others but a Porta Torch set MC/R20 is also needed for tight areas where you need real time heat and a tiny little flame. It's all about cost when you do the HVAC for a living. Many times you can get by with propane for very little cost. Other times due to space and pipe size you will likely need oxy / fuel to do the best job. Good Luck !! it's fun stuff !!

 

[LittleBill21]

i'm prolly going to get crap for this, but have you looked at super brite 8? can use regular propane, alot of guys will say no, but i read alot that say yes, its what i plan to use when i do my new system and im capable of brazing...

this is a long video, but it reconfirmed my wanting to use Stay-Brite #8 , also no need for a nitrogen purge

Brazing v.s. Soft Solder - YouTube

 

[fried1765]

Propylene could be used. But nothing is as hot as Acetylene really when it comes down to brazing.

Propylene????

 

[GLyford]

C3H6, aka "MAPP Pro", aka propene:

Propene - Wikipedia

 

[yomax4]

i'm prolly going to get crap for this, but have you looked at super brite 8? can use regular propane, alot of guys will say no, but i read alot that say yes, its what i plan to use when i do my new system and im capable of brazing...

this is a long video, but it reconfirmed my wanting to use Stay-Brite #8 , also no need for a nitrogen purge

Brazing v.s. Soft Solder - YouTube

Stay-Brite and Stay-Brite 8 are great low temp silver bearing solders. Nice thing about them is the remelt at approx 550 degrees is a bit higher than the original melt that's about 470. Bad thing about Stay- Brite is that it's not that good for refrigerant temps. I used it for it's quick ease when I plumed my cabin. Quick and easy but you need good fit up and should wash off the acid flux when done.

 

[LittleBill21]

Stay-Brite and Stay-Brite 8 are great low temp silver bearing solders. Nice thing about them is the remelt at approx 550 degrees is a bit higher than the original melt that's about 470. Bad thing about Stay- Brite is that it's not that good for refrigerant temps. I used it for it's quick ease when I plumed my cabin. Quick and easy but you need good fit up and should wash off the acid flux when done.

i have read that normal compressor temps are somewhere in the 200-250 range, anything over 300f and your going to have a short life span compressor, and thus is not a issue.

the video talks about it. again to each their own.

 

[yomax4]

i have read that normal compressor temps are somewhere in the 200-250 range, anything over 300f and your going to have a short life span compressor, and thus is not a issue.

the video talks about it. again to each their own.

I was meaning Sub Freezing temps. Not Heat. Sorry.

 

[LittleBill21]

where are you seeing sub freezing temps in a ac unit? your also the first to mention this, do you some kind of docs or link that talk about solder in sub freezing temps? i have never heard this mentioned.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Propylene????

Propylene | Linde Gas

 

[tjkubota93]

I put in my first ac unit with a borrowed acetylene turbo torch. It barely worked on the 7/8" line (took a long time). Last 2 I bought a port a torch and a nitrogen tank to purge while brazing. Go ahead and buy one. Then you wont ever need it again.

I bought a full size oxygen tank and a different torch tip then used the torch, hoses and regs off the port a torch kit with a propane tank to make a full size propane oxygen torch for my garage. I have a full set of the little tanks sitting around in case I need to do something where I need portability.

 

[jaxs]

An air-acetylene torch,hose,regulator and tank is the least expensive rig capiable of doing it but oxy-acetylene is by far the best. Oxy-acety let's you get in and out quick without overheating valves or metering device. Oxy-propane work's fine if you run across one. Since some work is charity,put the word out for someone to volunteer a torch. Before I used a get by solution for multiple installs I'd buy used then resell when finished. I saw a small like new Uniweld oxt-acety rig on Craigslist for $50 a couple of weeks ago.

 

[CADplans]

My first job out of college, I worked with an engineer that helped develop the Turbo Torch.
He explained how the torch works, concentrating the oxygen in the center with the fuel.
I have always been impressed with the Turbo Torch.

Recently, I wanted to bend some solid one inch steel bars, and I wanted to use the Turbo Torch that is connected to a 20 pound propane bottle.

I happened to find a used T-6 propane tip for the Turbo Torch on eBay, at a very reasonable price.

That tip is a beast, I can heat the one inch steel bar to glowing red in about 5 minutes, which is almost unbelievable.

So, besides the fuel, you have to consider the torch tip size. Get a big enough tip, propane/air will do the job.

 

[CADplans]

From one of the ESAB literature's,,,

TurboTorchｮ T-6 Propane Tip 0386-0154

TurboTorchｮ standard propane swirl flame tips are a full series of manual lighting tips that can be used with the H-4 Air Propane torch handle for various soldering and silver brazing applications.

Add range to your torch kit with economical tips that also feature a removable orifice screw.

Features
Soft solders 1 1/2" - 4"
Silver brazes 3/4" - 2"

 

[Raised on a Deere]

Thanks to everyone. I am still skittish about going the acetylene route for such a one time use. I use propane torches frequently and have Propane tanks on RV, barbecue, etc and solder pipe often.

I want to take a look at the porta torch that tjkubota93 suggested first but my comfort level is liking what CADplans suggested, the T-6 tip. That will be a nice upgrade to what I already do even if not suitable for the hvac project, and if it will get me through my upcoming heat pump split system install even if I have to spend a day on my brazing technique, then I hope that makes me done with my last hvac install ever.

Reason it took me so long to acknowledge and thank you guys for sharing your knowledge, is that my iPad and iPhone quit doing “remember me” and I couldn’t remember that I had spaces in my username. So I was lurking but could not respond. Technology can be frustrating, and now you know why I shouldn’t have acetylene tanks sitting around my place.

 

[jaxs]

While practicing keep this in mind. Copper conduct's heat very well. For that reason brazing short pieces of copper take's less heat than required to do the job you are doing.