Mark @ Everlast

[Arc weld]

252's are extremely popular in Alberta and it's one of the biggest welding markets in the world! People have come to rely on Miller equipment. Alberta is also on the forefront for the newest and latest innovations in welding. The tech school here needed to expand and spent $10 million on their state of the art welder training facility. It's called the NAIT Waiward Center for Steel Technologies. The Waiward name is added because Waiward Steel is a huge structural steel contractor that donated $1,000,000 to the new facility. There's even a story about the new facility on the Miller site. One of the sales managers I worked for said Northern Alberta alone is a $5 billion+ market for welding. When they're doing expansions in the oil sands, it's not millions, it's billions!

The 400 series torches may not be plastic but they look like plastic. Anything plastic looking on a cutting torch makes it look cheap. There was never anything said to imply that plastic wasn't a good material for other welding related applications. It's an aluminum/zinc alloy called Zamac. They are also listed as medium and heavy duty torches. What happens if you're left handed and hit the valves with your arm when making a cut? Even in one of their promotional pictures it shows a right handed person cutting. If you did the exact same photo with a left handed person, their arm would right against the valves. Most professional welders prefer the valves pointing down. They're out of the way and won't get bumped by your arm. Also puts the torch in a safe position for lighting with the flame pointing down (right handed users). Still with a round barrel you can position the valves where ever you prefer. The red and green valves isn't such a bad idea but putting which way to turn them? The new Purox have also gone to a 3 tube inline design with color coded valves. Is this a reflection on the people going into welding not being too bright?

How come on the box and in literature for Thermal Dynamics plasma machines, it says they invented plasma cutting in 1957? Thermal Dynamics was incorporated in 1957 so I suspect that maybe the people involved were working with Linde on developing Plasma? What's interesting is in 1968 an engineer working for Union Carbide came up with a great innovation for plasma cutting and Union Carbide had little to no interest in it. Thus he left to form Hypertherm and they are now the market leader in plasma cutting. Union Carbide, plasma? Hypertherm have more engineers in R&D than all other manufacturers combined (120+).

Sometimes having several brands under one name is good, other times it's good to have them as a separate identity. If you have a market leader, it's usually a good idea to keep the name. Thermal Dynamics used to be a market leader in plasma. Now Arcair and Stoody are going to go under the Tweco banner? Those are two of the most widely recognized names in the industry. Tweco is widely recognized as well but not for gouging or hardfacing. Changing the name may have more of a negative effect than a positive one. I guess time will tell. Same with Miller if they drop the Smith, Bernard, Weld Craft, Tregaskiss, etc. names.

A good example of poor marketing strategy is Honda. Honda tried to integrate all their divisions into one big dealership and were forcing existing dealers to spend big bucks and some smaller dealers to close. First they tried it in Europe and it didn't work so naturally they tried it again in Canada. After about 2 years the car dealers that took on the motorcycles and power equipment wanted nothing to do with it. This is proof that sometimes it's better to have separate divisions. Selling anything Honda is almost like having a ticket to print money. When you have something that works, why mess with it? If it's not working, changing the name might not be the most effective way to change that.

 

[Scooby074]

Sadly, Nova Scotia remains 20 years behind the rest of the welding world. It's no wonder with what I read here. Also, I am not a big fan of what Victor and Miller are doing in the Marketing arena, I was simply explaining the mind set after discussing this with both companies.

Not just Nova Scotia. New Brunswick too.

We buy what we know. Machines that work and generally dont let you down and have a history in our market. Ones with local reps and dealers and reasonable times to get parts and service.

One heavy fab place i worked at got a demo Panasonic machine. Some guys liked it. Maybe it would have displaced a blue machine at the time? But there was absolutely NO support for it that we were told. You cant run a business where you have questionable support for a brand. Blue and Red dealers were 3 blocks away. Now Panasonic has partnered with Miller. Maybe things will change

Same for yellow. Even the listed dealers dont stock. About the only thing not Blue or Red that is somewhat stocked is ThermalArc, and even then it doesnt sell well or so Ive been told. The new inverter MP machines are slowly picking up sales, but one store I was in had a 251 thats been on the floor for almost 5 years. I could have had it for less than cost to get it off the floor. They just dont sell.

 

[Arc weld]

Some of the lower priced machines like the inverters are pretty decent but on the wire feed machines, compare the drive roll set up on a Miller or Lincoln to a Thermal Arc or even the self contained Esab machines. No comparison. Heavy cast aluminum and not plastic or formed sheet metal. One thing that seems to have disappeared is demo rooms to try out welding equipment. Miller has one set up here but they used to be common in welding supplies. I think if TD/Victor supplied a couple machines to dealers to demo, would help them sell. I had a customer that wanted a Thermal Arc inverter to take home when he went to Columbia to see his family. He was a rig welder so knew what he expected in a machine. He wanted to try the machine out first and there was no way to so he didn't buy it. I think a lot of people on a limited budget would buy one if they could try it out. Even people looking at buying a more expensive machine like a Miller might buy it too if they could try it out. That's where brand recognition comes in. Miller generally puts out a good product, not always but usually. I'd take a Thermal Arc inverter over a Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC any day but a lot people just think the Thermal Arc is just foreign junk.

 

[ericher69]

Sadly, Nova Scotia remains 20 years behind the rest of the welding world. It's no wonder with what I read here. Also, I am not a big fan of what Victor and Miller are doing in the Marketing arena, I was simply explaining the mind set after discussing this with both companies.

Yomax;

Since you are soooo experienced and soooo knowledgeable why don't you enlighten us with your ultra high tech welder picks.

Also since the Midwest is the epicenter of knowledge in the welding world why don't you tell and show us wannabes about it??

Don't know what your issues are with the Millermatic 252 but it is what it is. An ultra reliable and proven MIG that gets the job done!

Yes the 350P is nicer but also about double the price...

 

[4shorts]

Funny. You seem like the guy who would own entry level equipment.. If I remember correctly you have a MM252 and you actually think it's a great welder.. problem is that it's 1970's technology and sourced from over seas like all welders these days.. I have done marketing for TD and ITW and they are more the same than different. Some people get it, Some are Smoke blowers with limited credentials.. P.S. Who gives a crap how long a $40.00 grinder lasts.

Not often I hear of anyone not likening the MM252. I have had mine for four years now and just think its fantastic. Super welds, super reliable, easy set up and makes good coin in our shop. What else could you ask for?

I also have the MM350P and yes it's a nice machine but I tend to grab the MM252 for most of my work. I had the MM251 before the MM252 and when I sold it the buyer gave me almost as much as I paid for it so it was a great investment. I can sell all my Millers on a phone call so that's another plus for liking the product.

Now I'll admit I may not be the weldor you are but I've been lucky enough to make a good living on what I know and do. As for grinders. Well I'll be honest. I go to our local Canadian Tire store and pick up the two pack for 4.5" grinders for $40. and they come with a three year warranty. Yup they are made in China but I don't know of a grinder that's not made there.

 

[k0ua]

I don't pretend to know much about Mig welders, but I would like to weigh in on grinders, I have 3, an older Makita, I have had for 20+years, a newer Ryobi, I have had for about 4 years, and an Harbor Freight blue one. I have had for about 3 or 4 years. I would rate them 1: Makita 2 Ryobi a close second to the Makita in my mind, and 3: the Harbor Freight. A very distant 3rd. but it does still work.

James K0UA

 

[jimcolt]

ArcWeld,

Just to set the record straight:

Here is your quote:

"How come on the box and in literature for Thermal Dynamics plasma machines, it says they invented plasma cutting in 1957? Thermal Dynamics was incorporated in 1957 so I suspect that maybe the people involved were working with Linde on developing Plasma? What's interesting is in 1968 an engineer working for Union Carbide came up with a great innovation for plasma cutting and Union Carbide had little to no interest in it. Thus he left to form Hypertherm and they are now the market leader in plasma cutting. Union Carbide, plasma? Hypertherm have more engineers in R&D than all other manufacturers combined (120+)."

-Union Carbide engineer Robert Gage invented (patented) the plasma cutting process in 1957. They later became L-Tec, then Linde, Now are under the Esab name.

-Thermal Dynamics Corp was founded around 1957 in West Lebanon, NH, the product of James Browning (Engineer, Dartmouth College professor). They actually were sued a few years into their business by Union Carbide for patent infringement.....but somehow their file cabinets caught fire and there was no good documentation to support the case. Thermal Dynamics, now Victor still has a small presence (a few engineers) in the W. Lebanon facility.....the rest of the company and products come from Texas, Mexico, and China.

-Hypertherm was founded by Richard (Dick) Couch and Dr. Robert Dean in 1968, Dean was another Dartmouth Thayer School of Engineering professor (as well as MIT), and Couch was one of his students. Hypertherm invented the radial water injection patent that revolutionized consumable life and increased the use of high powered plasma systems at that time. Dick Couch is still at work everyday at Hypertherm, owning 2/3 of the privately held company while the employees own the rest.

There was no "spinoff" from either T-D or Union Carbide for Hypertherm, just good high temperature Physics classes at Dartmouth College in Hanover NH......which is where Hypertherm's main plant is located.

And by the way, I really like my old MM250. Solid welder that I bought used......I think it is 22 or more years old.

Jim Colt Hypertherm

 

[Arc weld]

Somebody must have had a bad Christmas. The facts are that people are buying Miller and continuing to buy Miller because they've have good service and product support from Miller. That doesn't mean Miller has had some less than stellar machines too. In general Miller are very well built machines. Even if Thermal Arc, Esab or any other manufacturer had better machines, they aren't selling anywhere near the numbers that Miller and Lincoln are, at least not in my area. The one market where the Miller and especially Lincoln, aren't at the top is Plasma. That belongs to Hypertherm. It used to belong to Thermal Dynamics. Obviously Hypertherm is doing something better than TD and the others in plasma. That doesn't necessarily mean other machines aren't as good. Victor are the best selling oxy/fuel equipment but a lot of people aren't liking the new 400 series torches. In the end it comes down to the person laying out the cash. If they don't like the looks, feel, color, price, name, country of manufacture, sales rep or whatever, they aren't going to buy it. Not much you can do to change most peoples minds even if it could save them money. I've used Thermal Arc inverters and they were every bit as good as anything else but just aren't big sellers. I've tried to push them because they're a good machine but the higher ups where I work have very little interest in them other than having a poster for them on the wall.:confused3: An equivalent Miller inverter is several hundred dollars more and doesn't work any better.

 

[Arc weld]

Thanks Jim Colt. We just had the Hypertherm rep. give an introduction since we are a new dealer starting Jan. 1. He was the one that told us Dick Couch worked for Union Carbide and they weren't too interested in his water injection so he left and formed Hypertherm. Maybe he offered the information to Union Carbide and they weren't interested?

As far as Thermal Dynamics, I'm going off what the box and their literature says.

 

[Shield Arc]

Ive seen a Miller 250, a mechanic friend has one, but I've never run it. I've read on several welding forums that the 250 had a very small window for the sweet spot. Guy had to be very good at setting a machine to get them to run correctly! Supposedly Miller pulled the 250 out of production, and came out with the 251, then latter the 252. Here again I've never run any of them, but go to any of the welding forums and very experienced weldors just love the 252! :confused3: