cedarranch
Silver Member
Just wondering if any of you TBN'rs know of any sites with how to tips on installing metal roofing when lots of angles changes are present?
Metal Roofing Tips?
- Thread starter cedarranch
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kiphorn
Silver Member
I don't know of any web sites (never really looked) but with 16 years of roofing experience I may be able to help you out. I am an estimator/project manager for a large commercial roofing company. We do a lot of metal roofing (Banks, Shopping Centers, Churches etc.) with all kinds of material (prefinished steel and aluminum, copper, terne coated stainless, etc.) What do you want to know? I probably have some details in some of my manufactuers manuals that I could send (fax) to you. Give me an idea of your situation and I'll come up with something for you.
On second thought you might try this link, it has some details that may help you:
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.pac-clad.com/>Petersen Aluminum</A>
Go to the Drawing/PDF area. Then look at the Snap-Clad details. Snap-Clad is a pre-manufactured roof panel that looks like a traditional standing seam roof.
If you're working with copper I a have book published by Revere Copper that has details for copper roofs.
If your working with a "barn" type roof panel I have a book of details by McElroy Metals.
If you still need more information send me an email.
penst8@suscom.net
Kip
On second thought you might try this link, it has some details that may help you:
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.pac-clad.com/>Petersen Aluminum</A>
Go to the Drawing/PDF area. Then look at the Snap-Clad details. Snap-Clad is a pre-manufactured roof panel that looks like a traditional standing seam roof.
If you're working with copper I a have book published by Revere Copper that has details for copper roofs.
If your working with a "barn" type roof panel I have a book of details by McElroy Metals.
If you still need more information send me an email.
penst8@suscom.net
Kip
OP
cedarranch
Silver Member
Thanks for the reply kiphorn.
My house, garage, and carport use green R panels. I will be putting up another pole barn in the next few weeks using the same. My wife wants an oval-octogon shaped sun room with a hot tub. I have never used R panels on a roof like that. I am sure I could figure it out as I go, but any tips would be more than appreciated. Here is a link to some pics of my house and garage.
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://cedarranch.home.mindspring.com>http://cedarranch.home.mindspring.com</A>
My house, garage, and carport use green R panels. I will be putting up another pole barn in the next few weeks using the same. My wife wants an oval-octogon shaped sun room with a hot tub. I have never used R panels on a roof like that. I am sure I could figure it out as I go, but any tips would be more than appreciated. Here is a link to some pics of my house and garage.
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://cedarranch.home.mindspring.com>http://cedarranch.home.mindspring.com</A>
kiphorn
Silver Member
The R panel is a fairly common exposed fastener panel. Any company that produces an "agricultural line" of roof panels produces a panel with the R profile.
For the hips on you octagonal shaped roof the easiest way to cover your hips is to install a foam closure piece between the top of the panel and the hip cover. The closure will conform to the profile of the panel to seal out wind, rain and insects. The fasteners run through the hip cover into the top rib of the roof panel and secure the foam closure into place. The same detail can be used on the peak of your garage.
Most of the metal roofing companies produce standard trim pieces that you can buy (hip caps, drip edges, rake covers, etc.) because most companies that install pole barns and other similar structures may not have a sheet metal break. Plus if you have the trim pieces on the job you can complete the details as you go.
If you have access to a sheet metal break, you can do your peaks and hips with a "z" closure and a hip cap that clips onto the "z". (see the <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.pac-clad.com>Petersen</A> website, look at the Snap-clad details, these details can be modified to fit the panel you plan on using)
An octagon /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif is one of the hardest roofs to do. Can't go very far without cutting and tons of waste. The r panels aren't to bad because you can start in the middle of your roof section and work both ways so that you get your spacing correct. Just secure the middle so you can lift the one edge of the panel and slide the far right panel under the center panel so that it nests correctly, the left panel will overlay the center panel with the usual lap.
Thats alot easier than measuring, laying it out and starting at one side and working to the other (true standing seam panels can only be run in one direction), hopefully it works out that your seams line up.
I have a book from McElroy for a panel called the 5V crimp. This is the true barn panel. It shows every imaginable detail. The panel is different but the details are installed the same. Send me a private message or email with your fax number and I'll send the details to you.
Good luck with that octagon /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif. If you have any questions feel free to contact me.
Kip
For the hips on you octagonal shaped roof the easiest way to cover your hips is to install a foam closure piece between the top of the panel and the hip cover. The closure will conform to the profile of the panel to seal out wind, rain and insects. The fasteners run through the hip cover into the top rib of the roof panel and secure the foam closure into place. The same detail can be used on the peak of your garage.
Most of the metal roofing companies produce standard trim pieces that you can buy (hip caps, drip edges, rake covers, etc.) because most companies that install pole barns and other similar structures may not have a sheet metal break. Plus if you have the trim pieces on the job you can complete the details as you go.
If you have access to a sheet metal break, you can do your peaks and hips with a "z" closure and a hip cap that clips onto the "z". (see the <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.pac-clad.com>Petersen</A> website, look at the Snap-clad details, these details can be modified to fit the panel you plan on using)
An octagon /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif is one of the hardest roofs to do. Can't go very far without cutting and tons of waste. The r panels aren't to bad because you can start in the middle of your roof section and work both ways so that you get your spacing correct. Just secure the middle so you can lift the one edge of the panel and slide the far right panel under the center panel so that it nests correctly, the left panel will overlay the center panel with the usual lap.
Thats alot easier than measuring, laying it out and starting at one side and working to the other (true standing seam panels can only be run in one direction), hopefully it works out that your seams line up.
I have a book from McElroy for a panel called the 5V crimp. This is the true barn panel. It shows every imaginable detail. The panel is different but the details are installed the same. Send me a private message or email with your fax number and I'll send the details to you.
Good luck with that octagon /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif. If you have any questions feel free to contact me.
Kip
Kip - I'm in the process of building a house and was wondering if you have a ballpark cost difference between a composition roof and a metal roof. Just a rough percentage cost difference would be fine. Also any other differences between the two types, obviously the metal roof is more durable, but are there other things I should consider while trying to decide which route to go?
Thanks for the info you have shared so far!
Thanks for the info you have shared so far!
Kip, here's a question, I hope you can help with...
We have a neighborhood rule... no metal roofs. I think to keep cheap tin roofs being used for barns. So this means no tin,steel, or alum. Last year I sent off for some product information on PVC based roofing products.
A company out of PA. responded with some pretty nifty looking product samples. Mostly the wavey ~~~ looking stuff and some ~-~-~ wavey/flat/wavey styles. In many colors.
I was wondering if you've delt with this product before?
I'm concerned about UV breakdown of the product over time.
And since my barn is in a clearing in the woods, what happens if a small limb falls on it? Bounce or Crack?
thanks
gary
We have a neighborhood rule... no metal roofs. I think to keep cheap tin roofs being used for barns. So this means no tin,steel, or alum. Last year I sent off for some product information on PVC based roofing products.
A company out of PA. responded with some pretty nifty looking product samples. Mostly the wavey ~~~ looking stuff and some ~-~-~ wavey/flat/wavey styles. In many colors.
I was wondering if you've delt with this product before?
I'm concerned about UV breakdown of the product over time.
And since my barn is in a clearing in the woods, what happens if a small limb falls on it? Bounce or Crack?
thanks
gary
kiphorn
Silver Member
Sam-
The metal roofing will be more expensive than a composition shingle roof. Shingles can cost anywhere from $.25/sf (25 year 3 tabs) to $.60/sf (40 year dimensional shingles). Metal roofing can cost anywhere from $.70/sf (26 ga. bare galvanized) to $1.50 (24 ga. with a 20 year paint finish).
There are shingles with longer warranties and metal roofs fabricated from copper or aluminum which are much more expensive.
Shingles are cheaper to install than metal roofing. Metal roofing is more labor intensive and it requires a little more craftsmanship to install. Most everyone could read the label on a pack of shingles and do a reasonably good job of installation (I just wish more roofers did a better job, but that's a different subject). The same can't be said about metal.
40 year dimensional shingles should run about $150/square installed. (factors like roof pitch, dormers, hips and valleys can affect the price)
A metal roof can cost anywhere between $3.50/sf and $7.00/sf installed. The same factors listed above can also affect the cost of a metal roof. Metal roofs vary in price based on panel type. Some are exposed fastener panels that come in sheets approximately 36" wide. Others used concealed clips that come in widths 12"-18" wide. Obviously you cover alot more roof area with the 36" wide panel than a 12" panel which saves on labor.
As far a durability, I think its a toss up. The shingles will have warranties form 25-40 years. The metal roofing comes with a 20 year paint finish warranty but should last longer and could be repainted. Most shingles and some metal roofs will have a UL Class A fire rating. Shingles will probably stand up to hail better than the metal. Some people claim that the metal will help with cooling but I'm not sure there is anything to support the claims (mostly night time effects, they say the metal cools off faster and doesn't retain heat.)
Metal looks great but it comes at a much greater cost. Be sure your installer is qualified so that you can be sure your new roof won't leak. Install Ice & Water Shield in valleys, at eaves and at critical flashing points.
There are alot of exposed fastener panels in use today. I'm not wild about them. Something bothers me about putting hundreds of screws through a perfectly good roof panel. Plus, in time the neoprene washers deteriorate creating a source for leaks.
Hope this helps. Feel free to click on the email link above if you have more questions.
Kip
The metal roofing will be more expensive than a composition shingle roof. Shingles can cost anywhere from $.25/sf (25 year 3 tabs) to $.60/sf (40 year dimensional shingles). Metal roofing can cost anywhere from $.70/sf (26 ga. bare galvanized) to $1.50 (24 ga. with a 20 year paint finish).
There are shingles with longer warranties and metal roofs fabricated from copper or aluminum which are much more expensive.
Shingles are cheaper to install than metal roofing. Metal roofing is more labor intensive and it requires a little more craftsmanship to install. Most everyone could read the label on a pack of shingles and do a reasonably good job of installation (I just wish more roofers did a better job, but that's a different subject). The same can't be said about metal.
40 year dimensional shingles should run about $150/square installed. (factors like roof pitch, dormers, hips and valleys can affect the price)
A metal roof can cost anywhere between $3.50/sf and $7.00/sf installed. The same factors listed above can also affect the cost of a metal roof. Metal roofs vary in price based on panel type. Some are exposed fastener panels that come in sheets approximately 36" wide. Others used concealed clips that come in widths 12"-18" wide. Obviously you cover alot more roof area with the 36" wide panel than a 12" panel which saves on labor.
As far a durability, I think its a toss up. The shingles will have warranties form 25-40 years. The metal roofing comes with a 20 year paint finish warranty but should last longer and could be repainted. Most shingles and some metal roofs will have a UL Class A fire rating. Shingles will probably stand up to hail better than the metal. Some people claim that the metal will help with cooling but I'm not sure there is anything to support the claims (mostly night time effects, they say the metal cools off faster and doesn't retain heat.)
Metal looks great but it comes at a much greater cost. Be sure your installer is qualified so that you can be sure your new roof won't leak. Install Ice & Water Shield in valleys, at eaves and at critical flashing points.
There are alot of exposed fastener panels in use today. I'm not wild about them. Something bothers me about putting hundreds of screws through a perfectly good roof panel. Plus, in time the neoprene washers deteriorate creating a source for leaks.
Hope this helps. Feel free to click on the email link above if you have more questions.
Kip
kiphorn
Silver Member
Gary-
Sorry, I don't have any experience with the product you are refering to. Post the name (or email the name) of the product and I'll try to find out something for you.
No metal roofs!? Properly maintained a good old fashioned tin roof will outlast the shingles. Which looks worse, peeling paint on a tin roof or worn out curled up shingles?
The Lowes in our area carries a product called <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ondura.com/>Ondura</A> that might work for your barn. It looks easy to install and comes in colors. The only drawback as I see it is the exposed fasteners (see previous post above) but thats just my opinion.
Besides barns are supposed to have metal roofs.
Kip
Sorry, I don't have any experience with the product you are refering to. Post the name (or email the name) of the product and I'll try to find out something for you.
No metal roofs!? Properly maintained a good old fashioned tin roof will outlast the shingles. Which looks worse, peeling paint on a tin roof or worn out curled up shingles?
The Lowes in our area carries a product called <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ondura.com/>Ondura</A> that might work for your barn. It looks easy to install and comes in colors. The only drawback as I see it is the exposed fasteners (see previous post above) but thats just my opinion.
Besides barns are supposed to have metal roofs.
Kip
Kip - Excellent info! You have been more than helpful! I had kind of decided to go with composition because of the cost mainly. I have a problem also with putting those screws in the fields of metal roofing, it just doesn't make sense to me. You really made me feel much more comfortable with my decision to go with the composition. Thanks a million, it is greatly appreciated!!! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
JerryG
Super Member
I am either real dense or I am missing something here. I can have a 43’x 500’ building roofed with metal in about 4 days or so and yes I know that a house has more things to work around, but it takes most people around here two to four days to roof a regular house with shingles (more if the shingles have to be taken off) . There is a lot more square feet in my 500' building than in a house. Another thing, when a hailstorm goes through, what buildings or houses have to have new roofs every time? It’s not the ones with metal roofs. Please comment and set me straight if I am wrong because I need to replace the roof on my house and have been thinking about metal.
kiphorn
Silver Member
No you’re not dense and no you’re not missing anything. But comparing a house roof to a 21,500 sf building is like comparing a JD 4300 to a JD LT166. They’re completely different animals.
I don’t know much about your building but if I were bidding on it I don’t think I would plan on completing the job in four days. That’s alot of area to cover in four days. I’m sure there is someone out there that can do it I just wonder how many men (or women) they would put on the job. Are you using a 3’ wide exposed fastener panel? This could account for some of the speed of the installation.
I did this job several years ago. It’s about 100,000 sf of metal roofing. It took over four months to complete. Its only 4 times bigger than your building, but look at the time difference. <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ripariusconstruction.com/portfolio/item.asp?S=16&I=32>Metal Roof Link</A>
A house roof will normally take two or three days to complete depending on the size of the roof. We run three man crews on our jobs. On a typical house (6/12 pitch) with dormers, valleys and hips, etc. I figure a crew will run 15-20 squares of shingles on in a day complete with all flashings.
I worked up a price for the house I’m building. Its about 50 squares and will run about $135/square. That doesn’t include the felt (the builder is installing as he installs the plywood sheeting). The pitch on my roof is 12/12, which requires the shingles be installed off jacks and planks. I’m installing a 40 year shingle.
The cost of $150/square is for new construction and should cover most typical installations including felt, flashings and drip edge. If you are tearing off an existing roof you’ve got to add approximately $75/square. Every job is different so use these figures as a guide only.
As far as hail goes, when a metal roof is peppered with hail it will leave many dents in the roof but will not fail. It doesn’t destroy the roof but aesthetically it’s not the same. In heavy hail storms the shingles will get torn up and the metal roofs will be dented. For the average homeowner carrying a $250 deductible on his insurance replacing the roof is a no brainer. Most metal roofs are in commercial and agricultural applications. The farmers don’t care (much) that the roof looks like a golf ball and the commercial businesses don’t want to shell out for their huge deductibles to fix a little cosmetic damage.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the look of metal on houses. If my budget had allowed I would have put metal on my house. I would have installed a standing seam roof panel over the exposed fastener type. I still don’t like the idea of running all those screws through a perfectly good roof panel.
I don’t know much about your building but if I were bidding on it I don’t think I would plan on completing the job in four days. That’s alot of area to cover in four days. I’m sure there is someone out there that can do it I just wonder how many men (or women) they would put on the job. Are you using a 3’ wide exposed fastener panel? This could account for some of the speed of the installation.
I did this job several years ago. It’s about 100,000 sf of metal roofing. It took over four months to complete. Its only 4 times bigger than your building, but look at the time difference. <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ripariusconstruction.com/portfolio/item.asp?S=16&I=32>Metal Roof Link</A>
A house roof will normally take two or three days to complete depending on the size of the roof. We run three man crews on our jobs. On a typical house (6/12 pitch) with dormers, valleys and hips, etc. I figure a crew will run 15-20 squares of shingles on in a day complete with all flashings.
I worked up a price for the house I’m building. Its about 50 squares and will run about $135/square. That doesn’t include the felt (the builder is installing as he installs the plywood sheeting). The pitch on my roof is 12/12, which requires the shingles be installed off jacks and planks. I’m installing a 40 year shingle.
The cost of $150/square is for new construction and should cover most typical installations including felt, flashings and drip edge. If you are tearing off an existing roof you’ve got to add approximately $75/square. Every job is different so use these figures as a guide only.
As far as hail goes, when a metal roof is peppered with hail it will leave many dents in the roof but will not fail. It doesn’t destroy the roof but aesthetically it’s not the same. In heavy hail storms the shingles will get torn up and the metal roofs will be dented. For the average homeowner carrying a $250 deductible on his insurance replacing the roof is a no brainer. Most metal roofs are in commercial and agricultural applications. The farmers don’t care (much) that the roof looks like a golf ball and the commercial businesses don’t want to shell out for their huge deductibles to fix a little cosmetic damage.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the look of metal on houses. If my budget had allowed I would have put metal on my house. I would have installed a standing seam roof panel over the exposed fastener type. I still don’t like the idea of running all those screws through a perfectly good roof panel.
dmccarty
Super Star Member
KipHorn,
Thanks for the great info on roofs. Hopefully I'll be able to build my house this year and I'm torn between using a metal or asphalt shingles. This helps quite a bit.
I was confused by your comment about hail storms and roofs but you have a good point about the insurance. A few years ago a major hail storm went through Orlando, Florida. The insurance companies paid out 100's of millions of dollars for new roofs and new cars. I know two if not three of my family's houses had to have new roofs installed because of the hail. One of my cousins had her car outside during the storm and it looked like someone had beaten the sheet metal with a ball peen hammer for hours..... /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif Not a pretty site. So I guess a metal roof would have looked the same.....
Thanks...
Dan McCarty
Thanks for the great info on roofs. Hopefully I'll be able to build my house this year and I'm torn between using a metal or asphalt shingles. This helps quite a bit.
I was confused by your comment about hail storms and roofs but you have a good point about the insurance. A few years ago a major hail storm went through Orlando, Florida. The insurance companies paid out 100's of millions of dollars for new roofs and new cars. I know two if not three of my family's houses had to have new roofs installed because of the hail. One of my cousins had her car outside during the storm and it looked like someone had beaten the sheet metal with a ball peen hammer for hours..... /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif Not a pretty site. So I guess a metal roof would have looked the same.....
Thanks...
Dan McCarty
