MF 165 lift issues

[SB farm guy]

I am new to this site, have a Massey 165 built in 1971 (England) with 212 Perkins diesel. New to me but well used. Everything seemed to work when we looked at it, but lift arms shake, and won't lift my drum mower, will lift lighter items (5' tiller) if throttled up.
I have seen older threads that point to pump valves/pistons, leaky lift cylinder, etc with these symptoms. Have not seen definite answer to if tractor must be split to rebuild or replace these parts, assuming more mundane things like filter aren't the problem.
This tractor has multipower.
I am ordering manuals but would like to have some idea what I may be getting into.
I would appreciate any help that is out there.

 

[Mike476]

Photos are of my 135 when I had similar problems. O-rings on the lift rod from the pump / over-greasing lift arms that contaminated my hyd fluid and clogging the filter were what caused my problems. Lesson learned for me, one pump of the grease gun will do .... :thumbsup:

 

[SB farm guy]

Thanks much. I hope it turns out to be basic maintenance, and not a major project, although pulling the cover does not look like a routine item. 135 is a nice machine, my father in law has one.

 

[dcyrilc]

Will it hold the weight up if the tractor is turned off? I bought an older Deere with similar issues a while back. Mine would bleed off immeadiately when the tractor was shut off. I replaced the valves and seats for the 3PT and it works great now. Not sure if that's your problem, but it might be worth considering.

There shouldn't be much in the 3PH lift which would require splitting the tractor. The pump should be attached to the engine, 3PH control valves should be in the cover on on the side of it, lift piston should be in or under the transmission cover.

 

[SB farm guy]

Does bleed off slowly. Only concerned because multipower hardware makes pump too large to come out top cover for rebuild (as I understand it). Probably don't have that totally right, thus my question.
I am banking on the manuals making me smart enough to deal with it, since I would be lying to say I understood it very well right now.
Needless to say I am starting to hear about the tinker toy I bought...
I do love a challenge.

 

[Mike476]

Even after replacing orings on the standpipe / flushing twice and installing new filter / checking lift piston and adjusting tolerances my MF will not hold the arms up after shutting her down. From what I've been told over the years that is a characteristic of the older masseys.

Lift piston and rod, along with linkages are attached to the cover, which is probably why it weighs 2 million pounds (definitely a two person job).

 

[SB farm guy]

I have read that over and over about the weight. I could live with dropping after shutdown, but really need to lift properly. 800 # mower should be no issue, my compact 1250 is up to it. On the good side, if I rebuild it right may last another 40 years.

 

[Mike476]

Pulling the lift cover is not a complicated task, there is a roller that when you take the side cover off you will see, you have to remove it to slide the linkages apart during removal.

Installation is where you have to be careful to get the linkages situated correctly. Even with the I&T manual I still took some photos, a picture is worth a thousand words.

As mentioned in previous post, if like me you don't have another tractor with a FEL or a come-a-long / lift of some sort, be careful because most of the weight is towards the aft end of the lift cover. I did drain the oil from mine because of contamination, to simply remove the side cover to access the linkages you would probably get away with approx 10-15 litres (2-3 gals).

 

[Mike476]

First thing I would change is the filter, my first post with pictures, second and third images show the filter next to the PTO engagement lever cover, pop that off and it's right there. You can see that mine was lockwired, as it should be it was only hand tight, 30 minute job tops so worth doing for sure.

Should definitely lift 800 pounds, my problem is normally keeping the front end from coming off the ground if I've gotten a little reckless and chained a 26 inch 14 foot white pine log onto my 300 pound 7 foot back blade.

 

[SB farm guy]

I will start with that. Thanks much for the help. Looking forward to the manuals. Thanks also for the photos, really helps to anchor the information. I will fire back an update in a week or so after I have had a chance to open her up.

 

[Mike476]

Roger that, good luck.

 

[SB farm guy]

Well, back now with an update. Filter replacement did not change condition (still shakey and weak). Pulled top plate, ready to pull pump. MP may or may not force splitting tractor, though I am an optimist, and there does not seem to be a solid concensus about the question on line. I will if I have to, but would rather not.

 

[SB farm guy]

No Go on removing pump without splitting. Just not enough room to get it out, and probably hopeless to get it back in and lined up if I did. So... next I get to spilit my tractor. It is clear that pump removal and reinstall will be much simpler that way. On the good side, I now know a lot more about the machine than I did.

 

[Mike476]

That's too bad, but like you said you'll have had the chance to take a good look at your tractor, especially after you've split it.

 

[Mike476]

SB Farm Guy, was welding on a repair to my back blade this afternoon and was wondering what you may have found with your 3 pt problem.

 

[cowski]

i would hook a pressure gauge to it and check the pressure before i pulled the pump. your problem sounds like the cylinder o rings need replacing.

 

[SB farm guy]

Hello again. Thanks for thinking of me Mike476. Quite an adventure. I split the tractor, put a rebuild kit in the pump, and managed to get it all back together. Now nothing in the way of hydraulics at all. Did some troubleshooting (dont have pressure gage), and found no oil up standpipe at all. I have verified the stand pipe is seated, not cracked and orings are good. I know the pump is pumping since it rains inside the case (led me to double check stand pipe). Also know zero oil is getting up the standpipe, I looked at it with diverter valve off and tractor running, and did not get wet. I conclude it must be adjustment of the control valve or perhaps the pressure control is dumping everything back to tank.

I will have to drain some oil and go back in the side to see if I can figure it out, wish I had Big Dean's tutorial, but not luck laying hands on it.

Anyway, had to bale hay, and need the 165 to run the baler, so have been out getting some seat time without hydraulics. Tractor runs so well, it almost makes up for the anquish.

Fight the good fight

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Hello again. Thanks for thinking of me Mike476. Quite an adventure. I split the tractor, put a rebuild kit in the pump, and managed to get it all back together. Now nothing in the way of hydraulics at all. Did some troubleshooting (dont have pressure gage), and found no oil up standpipe at all. I have verified the stand pipe is seated, not cracked and orings are good. I know the pump is pumping since it rains inside the case (led me to double check stand pipe). Also know zero oil is getting up the standpipe, I looked at it with diverter valve off and tractor running, and did not get wet. I conclude it must be adjustment of the control valve or perhaps the pressure control is dumping everything back to tank.

I will have to drain some oil and go back in the side to see if I can figure it out, wish I had Big Dean's tutorial, but not luck laying hands on it.

Anyway, had to bale hay, and need the 165 to run the baler, so have been out getting some seat time without hydraulics. Tractor runs so well, it almost makes up for the anquish.

Fight the good fight

I've got a copy of the Big Dean Austin MF100 series CD. (NO, I wouldn't part with it for love nor money...) I WILL however, spend some time with it this afternoon and see what he has to say. (The world is not the same place without Dean here with us)

I'm voting for relief valve issues at this point. What takes place when you pull position lever all the way to "constant pumping" position?

 

[Mike476]

Fight the good fight is right, and cudos to you my friend for having not given up. Does sound like it could be a control valve issue, hopefully FWJ will be able to provide you with a little direction, great forum isn't it!

Regards.

 

[SB farm guy]

FWJ, Thanks. When troubleshooting, lever position had no effect at low rpm (some turbulence in sump), but at higher rev, splashing and falling fluid from above was visible through side plate, and more so when lever raised. We lifted the top again at that point and double checked standpipe and orings. bottom had cracked plastic spring ring, so we replaced both that and the oring there. splashing could have been a guyser from bottom of pipe or maybe from pressure control valve dump, hard to be sure.

This pump has no relief valve, I assume it is using the hitch "pressure control" feature to do that part, since the parts manual shows a variant with a plug where the relief should go like my pump has. The manuals simply dont tell you.

After reassembly, no more success, and have not been back in the side to see about leaks. standpipe did seem to be very well seated top and bottom.

The rest we know is that although I did not replace the lift piston or rings, and it MAY leak (arms did drop when shut off, so it probably does some) it has not had a chance to do so, and that was not the source of the "rain" we saw, since no fluid was making it up the standpipe. Thus my two hypothetical conclusions.

Mike472, you are right it is good to have someone to discuss this stuff with. looking back over the old threads on various sites, I am certainly not the first person to have such trouble.

As for Big Dean, I was not lucky enough to have known him, I came along too late. His impact is still clearly seen, however. It is obvious he is missed, that seems a good legasy to me.