Mix hydraulic fluids ?

loopman · Oct 8, 2013

Hi all

I've had a look through the articles here but couldn't see anything specific to my question - apologies if it has already been asked and answered.

I have a Ford 4500 Tractor-Loader-Backhoe. I'm running a Universal fluid ("ISO 46") in the main hydraulic system (manual states it should be Ford M2C48-A), but need to top up the transmission fluid (manual states should be Ford M2C41). The machine has a 'power-reversing' transmission and I have no idea what is in it at the moment.

Two questions:-

1) Is it okay to use the universal fluid in the transmission as well (I have no idea how 'ISO' grades relate to manufacturer specific numbers)
2) If yes, can I just top up the existing unknown fluid with it, or could they react together if not the same type and cause issues?

Machine is used only lightly and irregularly on a farm if that makes any difference.

Thanks in advance.

Gary Fowler · Oct 8, 2013

I don't think you would have a problem with mixing hydraulic fluids. Depending on the temperature you could be running ISO 32 or for higher temps use ISO 46. Higher number the thicker the oil is for ISO number. I think ISO 46 is like a 30W oil and ISO 32 is like 10W or 20W. Info on this is available by searching the net.
Most hydraulics use a common sump for transmission and hydraulics, but it sounds like yours have separate sumps for each. One of them is likely a thicker oil but I am not familiar with Ford/New Holland spec numbers. Again, the internet is your friend and specs on these two oils are likely available online.

loopman · Oct 8, 2013

Thanks Gary. Yes it does have separate sumps for the working hydraulics and the transmission, my experience before getting this machine was with standard tractors with common sumps so never had to decide whether I could mix oils before. From what you have said, and from other information online, it looks like I am okay to go with the ISO 46 fluid I have. I wanted to save the expense of purchasing a different drum of another grade but not at the expense of damaging the machine. For the temperature range I should be operating in the graphs of iso46 compared to iso32 are not that different.
Thanks again.

Soundguy · Oct 10, 2013

I WOULD NOT be putting any ISO plain hyd oils into the trans / rear end on that machine.

In fact. I'd have a utf meeting m2c134 spec in ALL sumps other than the engine. Ford specs that for hyds, tranny, rear ends, final drives, gear reduction, power steering..e tc.. )

loopman · Oct 11, 2013

Hi Soundguy,
I appreciate your advice, can you tell me why not though? What makes "ISO plain hyd oil" different from a Ford spec one? Is it just viscosity, or extra additives...???

I don't know a lot about fluid specs (as you can probably tell)

Cheers.

Gary Fowler · Oct 11, 2013

loopman said:
Hi Soundguy,
I appreciate your advice, can you tell me why not though? What makes "ISO plain hyd oil" different from a Ford spec one? Is it just viscosity, or extra additives...???

I don't know a lot about fluid specs (as you can probably tell)

Cheers.

I think what Soundguy was saying is that the hydraulic oils are ok to mix but don't use them in the transmission and rear end. They are different oils so get a separate oil for the transmission that meets the New Holland spec. I don't think you can find one oil that meets all of your requirements, but then again anything is possible I suppose.
Again I am not familiar with Ford or NH specs, but Soundguy has a lot of Fords and likely knows the brand name of oils that will work for you without going to the high dollar NH dealer oil. My little dealing with small Fords was over 50 years ago but it seems to me that the rear end and transmission oil would be a much thicker oil than hydraulic oil usually in the 80W to 90W range

LD1 · Oct 11, 2013

Ditto what soundguy said.

The 4500 does indeed have a separate sump for the hydraulics, that only operate the loader and backhoe. My 5500 is the same way. I dont have a bit of problems putting in a plane ISO 46 (DTE25) oil in there. All it is, is a pump, valve, and cylinder. Thats what plain hydraulic fluid is for.

But the trans and rear end have bearings and gears to lube. And those gears see extreme shear forces and loads. Plain hydraulic oil was not designed to lube bearings and gears properly. You need a universal hydraulic/transmission oil for the rear and trans. It works well with gears and bearings but can also be used for the main hydraulics for those tractors that pull oil from the trans for the loader and backhoe.

So short answer, IMO, plain ISO46 is fine for the loader and BH. But not fine for the trans and rear end, as the universal transmission fluid has other additives to properly lube the gears and bearings

Soundguy · Oct 11, 2013

many times.. when dealing withthat much oil..it's just as cheap to get a drum of utf for ALL sumps.. vs getting pails of plain hyd oil and then pails of utf..

loopman · Oct 12, 2013

Thanks for the advice, I shall see what I can get from the local suppliers and will avoid plain hydraulic oil as you all suggest. Seeing the machine had seen better days when I bought it, it might be cheap insurance to drop the transmission oil out and refill with the correct specs.
Thanks again.

Gary Fowler · Oct 12, 2013

Since you know what your specs call for, it is a simple matter of looking on the cans for what manufacturer specs the oil meets. There are lots of Universal Hydraulic /Transmission oils available. You just need to find one that lists both specs that you need. I use Triple S Premium universal hydraulic / Transmission oil in my tractors, BUT they all have common sumps for both oils.

Soundguy · Oct 12, 2013

it will be extremely hard today, to buy at UTF fluid.. from any botteler.. that will not meet the specs for a old ford like that.

( which is a good thing! )

FlyingLP · May 23, 2015

Soundguy said:
it will be extremely hard today, to buy at UTF fluid.. from any botteler.. that will not meet the specs for a old ford like that. ( which is a good thing! )

Possibly. I have a neighbor who was involved with Scouts at the same time as my family. He was running an old Massey (I don't know the details; sorry); but, he did some work on the front-end loader. In the course of that job, he drained the hydraulic oil and replace it with a UTF. The pump worked just long enough to get the tractor out of the shop, but when he lowered the bucket, it would not pick it up again. The hydraulic pump had simply stopped producing pressure. He finally got hold of an old shop manual for his hydraulic pump, discovered it specified "30 weight oil" for winter use and "40 weight oil" for "warm weather." He replaced the UTF with a "straight-grade motor oil" (40 weight) and the hydraulics went back to working.

Again, I don't know the tractor details; just heard the "grousing" over several weeks at meetings because his tractor was "stuck" in the middle of his driveway -- which was, apparently, very unhandy ;-) So, bottom line, UTF fluids do not always meet the "specs" of older equipment just because they are newer. In my neighbor's case, at 10W to 20W, UTF did not meet the 30W minimum weight requirement. He would have needed at least an ISO100 oil for that -- which in our area is a special order, and not 'cheap' by any means ;-)

I run AW46 or AW68 (when I can get it) in my 4500's hydraulics. Either is in the "range" (40 to 80 cSt @ 40C) of a "20 weight" oil.

The generic "tractor fluids" they sell hereabouts all have good anti-corrosion, anti-wear, anti-foam, anti-etc properties; however, they vary considerably in viscosity from brand-to-brand; many are ISO 32 -- which is equivalent to "15W" oils; and, for some, that info is hard to locate. (So what, exactly, is the viscosity of "Big R Universal Tractor Fluid; and, did any of its salient properties change when the store became "North 40 Outfitters," or did they just re-label all of the buckets?)

Rather than having to research "generic UTFs" for specific information, or read the unreasonably small (for my old eyes) print on "name brand" labels, I just stick with the AW/ISO labeled oils for my hydraulic sump. I've had good success with the AW46 year-around; but, as you might expect, the AW68 fairs better it the warm weather (less "seepage" around old seals).

My $0.02 worth
(and that is inflation!)
--LP--

Soundguy · May 26, 2015

Well, I see people don't actually read my posts!

I said old ford. not old massey.

Some old ferguson use a similar belly pump as fords, but for some reason they really, really, really like the 90wt original rear end / hyds oil, it was similar to a gl-1 oil.

Can't always compair different tractor makes.

As far as iso 46/68 and other straight hyd oils.. just make sure you don't run them in sumps that are also tranny or rear end gear cases... Those sumps need UTF.

As far as UTF for the old fords. CNH reccomends it's UTF fluid for all older fords even back thru the 1939 9N.

fortec · May 31, 2015

Just one word of warning. If you do buy a universal fluid make sure that you get a reputable brand. There are many on the market that are, to say the least, rather dubious products with inferior performance.

Soundguy · Jun 1, 2015

fortec said:
Just one word of warning. If you do buy a universal fluid make sure that you get a reputable brand. There are many on the market that are, to say the least, rather dubious products with inferior performance.

however.. I don't think you can find a modern UTF today that won't be suitable for something like an old Ford N.

Biggest problem with cheap UTF today is viscosity. some are like pudding when very cold.

fortec · Jun 1, 2015

Soundguy said:
however.. I don't think you can find a modern UTF today that won't be suitable for something like an old Ford N.

Biggest problem with cheap UTF today is viscosity. some are like pudding when very cold.

Unfortunately some of the 'UTF' products being sold are grossly inferior and are, according to published articles and industry contact quotes, a real concern. Apparently some companies are selling products that are undertreated or, even worse, have no additive content at all! That's why I am saying buy a reputable brand product.

Soundguy · Jun 1, 2015

Havnt seen any no add utf. The few I buy , I check their published test / specs.

fortec · Jun 1, 2015

Soundguy said:
Havnt seen any no add utf. The few I buy , I check their published test / specs.

As long as you read the labeling carefully. For instance does it say approved or does it say 'recommended'? There can be a big difference 'recommended', by who, the company selling it? Think I'm exaggerating?

Soundguy · Jun 1, 2015

fortec said:
As long as you read the labeling carefully. For instance does it say approved or does it say 'recommended'? There can be a big difference 'recommended', by who, the company selling it? Think I'm exaggerating?

I don't think you are making it up.. I just think that some of it may not be 'important'.

IE. your argument of wording, reccomended vs approved and your suposition of reccomended by who? the seller. Ok.. throw that at approved.. approved by who? the seller. Both would be at issue.

Now enter in a tractor not made for 60-70 ys, orphaned for the most part except by limited legacy parts support, or completely orphaned . It's not like there will be an oliver or massey harris dealer to set around and test and approve oils.

Look at the oils in use in 1939... I don't think you can find a modern oil today that won't exceede what a 9n left the factory with.

even if it is the cheapest, weakest add package available. While we are talking oil.. remember.. if a bottle lists a spec, you hit liability if you lie. IE. if a bottle carries a API rating, or other similar specified ratings, if they don't at least meet, then you have lawsuit material. I believe it was supertech a few years back that had a mis labeling feature, and you better believe they got called on the carpet for it.

When it comes to UTF, and cheap utf here are 2 things I see .

1, cheap utf.. IE, the 19-25$ for 5-6 g pails. You see a marginal oil that has a BAD viscosity index.. IN other words, it will be like jelly when cold, and won't meet modern rating standards or change intervals. However... in the case of an old tractor... the old tractor wasn't designed around modern ratings and change standards!

While I would not put 19$ utf in my brand new John Deere or New holland 40000$ 90hp tractor working in FLORIDA, I wouldn't think twice about putting it in a 1939 ford 9N. The viscosity won't matter, as the original hyd oil was also a GEAR oil, so it's already expecting a thick oil , and by design they used a scotch yoke pump, not a vane pump.

To evidence this. you see some UTF pails that don't actually list a spec, they will just say suitable for non modern tractors. Very likely a save face for having an out of date or out of spec oil. For instance, see an cheap UTF listing a JD 303 spec? That's a QUITE OLD spec back to when they used SPERM WHALE OIL!!!!! Again.. wouldn't put it in my 2004 New holland.. but wouldn't mind it in my 1970's era yanmar! ( that called for that spec! )

sashooter · Jun 1, 2015

Soundguy said:
I don't think you are making it up.. I just think that some of it may not be 'important'.

While I would not put 19$ utf in my brand new John Deere or New holland 40000$ 90hp tractor working in FLORIDA, I wouldn't think twice about putting it in a 1939 ford 9N. The viscosity won't matter, as the original hyd oil was also a GEAR oil, so it's already expecting a thick oil , and by design they used a scotch yoke pump, not a vane pump.

As for a 53 naa the specs in the owner manual are outdated. That being said can you use any UTF fluid in both the transmission, and hydraulic systems?

It looks like they would have separate sumps on the naa's as what I can tell?

Any that you would recommend?