Modern Fluids in Old Tractors?

[ultrarunner]

With really old engines that have no filter and never been opened and cleaned we still use non detergent straight 40weight oil.

On a new rebuilt with aftermarket oil filter modern oil is the way most go.

Modern detergent oil keeps particles in suspension which the filter catches…

Old non detergent the particles tend to drip out and collect in the pan…

 

[MarblemountLane]

With really old engines that have no filter and never been opened and cleaned we still use non detergent straight 40weight oil.

On a new rebuilt with aftermarket oil filter modern oil is the way most go.

Modern detergent oil keeps particles in suspension which the filter catches…

Old non detergent the particles tend to drip out and collect in the pan…

Thanks, that is a good explanation. Non-detergent is almost a thing of the past. I have a little 30W N-D for my compressor. I remember when Dad was nursing a ‘49 Cornbinder on its last legs, getting about 80mpg on engine oil, sort of driving in a blue cloud! We were buying cheap 2 gal. cans of non-detergent.

Do you see any reason not to use up any Type-F, Type FA and Dexron that I have on the shelf when it comes time to replace hydraulic fluid in my loader? I would think any and all ATF would be equally good hydraulic fluid.

 

[ultrarunner]

Have not kept up as most everything I have is old…

Would hate to be the source of detrimental advice…

 

[MarblemountLane]

Just curious. I saw ATF for $2 a quart at a Big Box Outlet store. Saw various tractor fluid at O’Reilly Auto. The 32, 46 and 68 was $70 for 5 gal. ($3.50 per qt.). They had a universal fluid that claimed it was good for 32, 46 or 68, for $76 a gallon ($3.80 per qt.). Just looked online and see Walmart listing their brand ATF for $19.84 $4.96 a qt.) but they also listed Valvoline multi-vehicle ATF for $10 ($2.50 a qt.).

i’m thinking stay with ATF, but want to be fairly confident I can mix in the old stuff I have on the shelf. As far as I know, the type differences are due to friction modifiers, and pretty much a thing of the past.

Edit: OOPS, my mistake. The outfit selling $9.99 Valvoline ATF is not Walmart, it’s someone called IGHTE.

Edit 2: Looks like, by all reports, IGHTE is a scam outfit. I doubt I’ll ever really find high grade synthetic ATF for $9.95 a gallon.

 

[Grumpycat]

Modern detergent oil keeps particles in suspension which the filter catches…

Thats half true. Detergent oil keeps the fine stuff in suspension. It "gets dirty" quickly. The filter only gets the big stuff.

Fans of non-detergent oil like how it appears to stay clean longer. The problem is the fine soot is being deposited on cooler surfaces of the engine. Sometimes deposits flake off and damage bearings before being caught in the oil filter.

Late 1980's Amsoil tried a "lifetime oil change" product. Only "replenish" a quart of oil per year to renew additives and use a new $25 oil filter every year. The non-detergent oil stayed honey colored until the engine seized from excessive deposits in oil passages.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

I’m thinking most of us with old tractors have similar questions. Maybe I should be posting over at BobIsTheOilGuy but I think this is a common issue.

I have a Massey Ferguson 204. I’ve heard they were made 1959-65 and also heard 1960-66. Ran my serial number at one site and it said 1959.

The manual says Type A ATF in torque converter. Closest thing today is Dexron, so that’s what I used.

Modern engine oils are much better, so I figured no harm in using 20-50 in that old loose Z134 engine. I went ahead and bought a spin-on filter conversion.

Looking at my hydraulics, thinking of changing return hose and filter, and all fluid while I’m at it, I see the manual says Type A ATF for the hydraulics, too. Should I go with Dexron again, or is there a modern alternative that is better and/or more cost effective? Also, will I have compatibility issues flushing out the system and making any change? (I have the big sliding kingpost backhoe, but have never seen it on the tractor. It will need TLC but I hope to see it in service.)

My trans/axle wants all mineral SAE90. Tractor Supply had some (interestingly, the label says Ford transmission fluid). I’m using this OK. BTW I had an issue with it being half water when I got the tractor, and even after a change I had water. Messy stuff to handle, but I drain a bucket out, place the stainless steel bucket on a hotplate set to take it slowly to just above 212 F then let it cool, drain more with water & return the water-free oil to the trans. Do we really need special all mineral 90 weight, or can we use modern 90W or even something like Redline MT90?

You may want to use Type F fluid because Dextron has friction modifiers in it that isn't good for clutch packs. Friction modifiers = slipping. F will provide crisp shift. Slip means wear.

 

[ultrarunner]

Thats half true. Detergent oil keeps the fine stuff in suspension. It "gets dirty" quickly. The filter only gets the big stuff.

Fans of non-detergent oil like how it appears to stay clean longer. The problem is the fine soot is being deposited on cooler surfaces of the engine. Sometimes deposits flake off and damage bearings before being caught in the oil filter.

Late 1980's Amsoil tried a "lifetime oil change" product. Only "replenish" a quart of oil per year to renew additives and use a new $25 oil filter every year. The non-detergent oil stayed honey colored until the engine seized from excessive deposits in oil passages.

Most of my engines have not been opened in 40 or more years and none of these have oil filters so I simply change with 40 WT non-detergent…

No problems so far but I exceed the manufacturers 500 mile oil change interval sometimes going nearly a 1000 miles in the course of a year…

 

[Grumpycat]

You may want to use Type F fluid because Dextron has friction modifiers in it that isn't good for clutch packs. Friction modifiers = slipping. F will provide crisp shift. Slip means wear.

Friction gets modified both ways, more and less.

All ATFs have clutches of some sort. They expect a specific friction range in order to smoothly shift. Too much friction and they bite for rough shift, too little and they slip.

In a manual synchronized transmission we like to increase friction between bronze/copper and steel to improve the performance of the synchros. The very same thing is bad for an engine due to the crankshaft being steel and bearing inserts being bronze.

 

[newbury]

With really old engines that have no filter and never been opened and cleaned we still use non detergent straight 40weight oil.

On a new rebuilt with aftermarket oil filter modern oil is the way most go.

Modern detergent oil keeps particles in suspension which the filter catches…

Old non detergent the particles tend to drip out and collect in the pan…

Just need to be careful that someone doesn't put modern (detergent) oil in an engine that had been using non-detergent for a long time.
Back in the early '70's an acquaintance had a very old 2 seater MG that ran like a top. Her mechanic did an oil change and put in detergent oil by mistake. cleaned up all the built up oil and required a complete engine rebuild.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

Friction gets modified both ways, more and less.

All ATFs have clutches of some sort. They expect a specific friction range in order to smoothly shift. Too much friction and they bite for rough shift, too little and they slip.

In a manual synchronized transmission we like to increase friction between bronze/copper and steel to improve the performance of the synchros. The very same thing is bad for an engine due to the crankshaft being steel and bearing inserts being bronze.

Yes, I rebuild transmissions. You didn't mention fiber mesh synchronizers that use ATF. Most individuals that don't like how the red fluid don't have much hang time tend to use straight STP in those. On a slow moving machine I would want a dry fluid for a crisp shift. They commonly use F in gm turbo 350 and 400 transmissions at the drag strip.