More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches?

   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #11  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( This is why NASCAR engines turn such incredible RPMs. The faster the engine turns, the more power it can make.

One thing to always remember is that it is torque that breaks parts, not RPM.

Another thing to remember is that most horsepower claims are marketing untruths.)</font>

I agree and disagree both. I agree that engine speed will make more power assuming the valve timing is specific to the range of speeds you want to make that power in. I assume you meant that though.

What I disagree with, is that torque breaks parts. I've seen the opposite, in that engine speed puts more wear on parts. Granted. for the typical diesel engine, which never sees engine speeds anywhere near what a gas engine ungergoes, your statement is correct. For a gas engine though, increasing engine speed increases side loading (due to radial forces at the rod journals) of the rotating assembly by the square of the crankshaft speed. Torque puts more torsional loading on the crank, rather than radial loading, which is designed to take that torsional stress. The higher engine speed requires more oil pressure to keep rod and main bearings alive, and the additional shaft speed causes valvatrain deficiencies to become more noticable. Based on my own experience, a 600 hp / 460 ft-lb, naturally aspirated, 333 CID Ford engine had much more wear than a 940 hp / 950 ft-lb turbocharged 306 CID Ford engine, upon inspection after dissassembly. The NA engine made power from 4500 RPM through 7500 RPM, while the turbocharged engine made power from 3000 RPM through 6000 RPM. The NA engine had alot more wear on the rod journal bearings and the main bearings than the turbocharged engine. It also had alot more wear on the thrust bearing, but that may be more clutch related than speed related. The rotating assemblies were both high quality, but the NA engine had all lightweight billet components, while the turbo engine just had run of the mill heavy duty forged parts. I guess I'm getting off subject here, but I am of the opinion that higher speeds kill engines faster than just alot of torque. Granted, for a diesel running less than 3000 RPM, it's pretty moot point, engine speeds that low won't hurt enything.
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #12  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( What I disagree with, is that torque breaks parts. I've seen the opposite, in that engine speed puts more wear on parts.)</font>

I agree with your disagreement, Aardvark. I've built and torn down quite a large number of hot-rodded Harley-Davidson engines over the years; these are (by modern standards) long stroke, low rpm, high torque motors, and in that regard maybe more like tractor engines than some others. The thing that kills a lot of hot rod Harley top ends is excessive piston speeds and the heat that generates. The longer the stroke, the higher the piston speed on every revolution to turn that puppy around to going the other direction at the top and bottom of every stroke. Long stroke / high torque engines make good, broad rpm range, usable power at lower rpms, but high rpms will destroy them.

You hit the nail on the head with your first paragraph; i.e., any engine must be designed as a package to make power for the desired purpose in the desired rpm range.

Pete
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #13  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Commonly, diesels have approximately 5 degress retarded timing to account for a decrease in NOx emissions these days.

However, all you have to do is increase the injection nozzles orifices diameter a couple of microns to add mucho horsepower and gobs of torque, either that or increase the crank injection window a couple of degrees to prolong the injection event.

Installing a new injection nozzle onto the injector with larger nozzle orifices is a super simple ten minute job and works excellent. There is no need to tweak the fuel injection pump or add more injection pressure with either of these methods.

Problem is they both increase the EGT under load, smoke alot more, and violate emissions laws, but the power output increase is spectacular. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif )</font>

Is this possible with any given tractor? I'd love to hear more about this... Would a mechanic at a dealership do this, or would you have to get a mechanic to do it privately?
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #14  
I'd like to have him working for me if he can change out injectors that fast. Very close to being right but a lot of money could be spent before the right combinations of injectors as well as lines and many more possible combinations to gain and still not smoke, to much as some engines seem to have more room for clean expansion of horsepower then others. Most europeon design as well as orient are more conservative on the power and designed more for fuel economy.
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #15  
It is really quite simple, there are only a couple of standard diesel fuel injector sizes (not sure if Kubtoa uses DENSO FIE system or their own design (I kind of doubt Kubota designs their own FIE though so most likely it is DENSO FIE but probably it is a Variable Closed Orifice P type pintle multi sac hole nozzle design of standard dimensions).

All you have to do is remove the entire OEM injector, screw off the OEM nozzle and replace with a standard nozzle having the same number of nozzle holes but larger nozzle orifices for more fueling per each injection event. These replacement nozzles could be sourced from other similar 'Bota engines with larger displacement and similar piston bowl design to keep the injection orifice geometry similar i.e. same number of holes in the same geometrical orientation to avoid hot spots in the combustion chamber). The IDI design of the current smaller 'Bota engines below 50hp only utilizes about a 3,000+ psi injection pump, whilst the newer larger Kubota diesels use direct injection at much higher pressures >10,000psi, although this technique will easily work with either design. There is no need to get entirely new injectors or mess with anything else, just change out the nozzle to new larger ones, it is extremely simple and only takes a few minutes.

On my two Volkswagen 1.9 liter TDIs with the Bosch VE37 rotary distributor injection pump (20,000 psi direct injection) and the Bosch VCO P type sac hole 17mm injectors, I just changed out the four injector nozzles in about 15 minutes. The OEM Bosch nozzle orifices were 0.158 microns which I replaced with new 0.205 micron nozzles. This increased the fueling event considerably with no increase in fuel pump pressure. Result was the OEM 90HP and 155 pounds of torque was increased to 140HP and 240 pounds of torque, this kind of power boost is very easy to detect with the butt dyno as well. Did this about four years ago after ordering the new larger injection nozzles from Italy and both TDIs are still running extremely strong with little decrease in fuel mileage (from 48mpg down to 42).

Here is where I purchased the larger replacement nozzles for less than $100:

http://www.bosio-estfb.it/pag3eng.htm

As you can see, you can get new nozzles for virtually any diesel engine if you know the engine design details well enough. I'll have to pull an injector on my L-3130 and take some measurements to see about ordering a replacement larger nozzle to boost the horsepower and torque sometime. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #16  
BTW, all of Kubota's FIE is sourced from NIPPON DENSO (including the fuel injection pump, the fuel injectors, and all associated fuel injection components) they do not make or design any of the FIE utilized on their diesel engines.

The injectors and nozzles on all their diesel engines are made by NIPPON DENSO and new or reconditioned nozzles cost as low as $10.00 each. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

The Kubota L-3130 IDI engine is a part of their Super 03-M Series, specifically the D-1503 model with 91.5ci, 31hp, and 76 pounds of twist. The D1503-M has a bore and stoke of 83 x 92.4 mm and output of 31.5 hp at 2800 rpm. The turbocharged version of this engine has an output of 42 hp at 2800 rpm. The D1503-M-T is the only turbocharged engine in the series.

With a 25% increase in combustion chamber fueling this engine could be boosted to about 36-38hp and 100 pounds of twist. Whether or not the frame, tranny, and axles can handle that remains to be seen but since the turbocharged version achieves 42hp, the engine itself could easily handle the large injection nozzles..

In fact, upgraded larger injector nozzle assemblies could be sourced directly from the Kubota D1503-M-T turbocharged engine model. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #17  
Quite typically international OEMs design a standard diesel engine series and then outfit it specifically for different market niches in various environments (industrial, agricultural, marine, etc) to fit the desired load, altitude, application, emissions, etc.

So quite often the exact same engine can be utilized in four, five or six different configurations utilizing various customized specific injection pump pressures, injector nozzle sizes, with or without turbocharging, different fuel injection mapping, etc.

It is most easy to design a stationary industrial engine to operate under a constant load at a constant altitude at a constant temperature. It is much more difficult to design an engine for automotive, truck, or tractor use at widely varying loads and all different altitudes, in a multitude of different operational environments.

Just simply changing the injection nozzle orifce size is sufficent for the 2HP change you noted between the two Kubota engines, as long as the emissions still meet the intended market.
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #19  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I think you have might just started the "tuner" tractor trend. )</font>

LOL /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anybody involved in a tractor pulling contest probably already knows all about this, if they've been winning........ /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
   / More Horsepower, Same Cubic Inches? #20  
I appreciate the info. I have never owned a diesel prior to this tractor, I've only had gas engines. I knew the diesel cycle is different than the four stroke cycle, and understood that the more fuel you put through a diesel engine, the more power it makes. I suspect it must also work that way with a diesel once you hit a point? When does the diesel supply exceed the air supply? I was also under the impression that as you put more fuel into a deisel, the engine will rev to a higher RPM, to a point. Correct or no? I guess I need to read up on diesels.
 

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