More residential well questions

[etpm]

The manufacturer is selling direct to the consumer? There's a reason they are not sold by some retailers.

What is that reason? Have you bought a Cycle Stop Valve? Do you have any experience with one? My well installer doesn't sell them, yet he does recommend them. And he has nothing to do in any way with them except installing them when a customer buys one.
Eric

 

[Valveman]

The manufacturer is selling direct to the consumer? There's a reason they are not sold by some retailers.

All manufacturers sell to the consumer. They usually just sell under a different name so they can say they only sell to the installers. But everybody knows a Water Worker tank is an Amtrol. Everybody knows brands like Utilitech and Flotec are made by companies like Pentair and Franklin. Cycle Stop Valves just doesn't hide anything. We give a good discount to DIY customers, a better discount to installers, and even better yet to legitimate supply houses and manufacturers.

Thirty something years ago we started selling exclusively through the pump installer chain. I did 20 years of hot dog days and trade shows all over the country for water well, irrigation, and pump people. But pump guys can be so stuck in their ways it is hard to get them to try something new. It is a rare occasion to talk to a pump guy who says restricting a pump with a valve is a good thing, makes the pump/motor draw lower amps and run cooler. Most pump guys think restricting a pump with a valve is a bad thing. Which I understand as I use to think that myself. But when I hear a pump man say restricting with a valve is going to destroy the pump, I know I am just wasting my time. If this guy ever gets started on the learning curve and realizes just the opposite is true, then he and I can finally have an intelligent conversation. Until then, I am better off explaining it to the home owner, as most do not have incorrect assumptions to overcome.

Once the homeowner understands the benefit of a CSV, they are going to have one no matter if the installer installs it or not. Many installers are adamite about not installing a CSV, or not warrantying their equipment if a CSV is installed. Which is why we try to make it easy to DIY a CSV, and offer to pay for any damage caused by one of our valves. Which, of course in thirty something years has never happened.

Once in a while a hard headed installer will install the CSV at his customers request. When they see it work, and start to see the benefits, many times I get a new installer customer. Which again gets a better discount than consumers. I find it is easier for me to get installer customers when the consumer is telling the installer they want a Cycle Stop Valve, than at any hot dog day or trade show. So, I advertise and sell to the consumers to help educate and get more installers to see the light. I would be out of business if it were not for the Internet, as installers make so much more money selling VFD's to do the same thing that they would just never tell the consumers about a Cycle Stop Valve.

 

[steve tym]

What is that reason? Have you bought a Cycle Stop Valve? Do you have any experience with one? My well installer doesn't sell them, yet he does recommend them. And he has nothing to do in any way with them except installing them when a customer buys one.
Eric

In my area, and I suspect the same is true in most area's, we don't make money from labor, we stay in business by selling materials. As a rule, I won't install customer supplied materials. Not because I don't like them, but, I don't profit from them and I become responsible for them. Not that I'm greedy, but I need to stay in business.

 

[steve tym]

All manufacturers sell to the consumer. They usually just sell under a different name so they can say they only sell to the installers. But everybody knows a Water Worker tank is an Amtrol. Everybody knows brands like Utilitech and Flotec are made by companies like Pentair and Franklin. Cycle Stop Valves just doesn't hide anything. We give a good discount to DIY customers, a better discount to installers, and even better yet to legitimate supply houses and manufacturers.

Thirty something years ago we started selling exclusively through the pump installer chain. I did 20 years of hot dog days and trade shows all over the country for water well, irrigation, and pump people. But pump guys can be so stuck in their ways it is hard to get them to try something new. It is a rare occasion to talk to a pump guy who says restricting a pump with a valve is a good thing, makes the pump/motor draw lower amps and run cooler. Most pump guys think restricting a pump with a valve is a bad thing. Which I understand as I use to think that myself. But when I hear a pump man say restricting with a valve is going to destroy the pump, I know I am just wasting my time. If this guy ever gets started on the learning curve and realizes just the opposite is true, then he and I can finally have an intelligent conversation. Until then, I am better off explaining it to the home owner, as most do not have incorrect assumptions to overcome.

Once the homeowner understands the benefit of a CSV, they are going to have one no matter if the installer installs it or not. Many installers are adamite about not installing a CSV, or not warrantying their equipment if a CSV is installed. Which is why we try to make it easy to DIY a CSV, and offer to pay for any damage caused by one of our valves. Which, of course in thirty something years has never happened.

Once in a while a hard headed installer will install the CSV at his customers request. When they see it work, and start to see the benefits, many times I get a new installer customer. Which again gets a better discount than consumers. I find it is easier for me to get installer customers when the consumer is telling the installer they want a Cycle Stop Valve, than at any hot dog day or trade show. So, I advertise and sell to the consumers to help educate and get more installers to see the light. I would be out of business if it were not for the Internet, as installers make so much more money selling VFD's to do the same thing that they would just never tell the consumers about a Cycle Stop Valve.

I'm pleased to hear you have different pricing structure depending on whom you are selling too, better.
I've spent more time learning and hearing about CSV's than I have since they hit the market.
I worry about them with high pressure pumps, but for most lower pressure systems, I can see the benefit.
I'll be the first guy to tell my customers that on/off cycles are bad. Almost every component of the system has a limited number of on/off cycles.
The pump, the motor, the check valves, the tank, the switches (both pressure switches and starting switches), pretty much everything.
Thanks for the education. Hopefully those following this thread are leaning a lot.
And no, back pressure on a pump is not a bad thing, within limits. - Steve

 

[Valveman]

I'm pleased to hear you have different pricing structure depending on whom you are selling too, better.
I've spent more time learning and hearing about CSV's than I have since they hit the market.
I worry about them with high pressure pumps, but for most lower pressure systems, I can see the benefit.
I'll be the first guy to tell my customers that on/off cycles are bad. Almost every component of the system has a limited number of on/off cycles.
The pump, the motor, the check valves, the tank, the switches (both pressure switches and starting switches), pretty much everything.
Thanks for the education. Hopefully those following this thread are leaning a lot.
And no, back pressure on a pump is not a bad thing, within limits. - Steve

Yes, cycling on and off is what destroys most pump systems. So, a product that stops cycling is disruptive to the pump industry and they try everything they can to keep it from being mainstream. I showed one company how they could build a Cycle Stop Valve into the discharge head of their above ground type pumps for about two dollars. The guy turned white as a sheet. Heard him say behind closed doors, "Can you imagine how long pumps will last if they never cycle?" Thought I was doing good and I was shooting myself in the foot. It turns out that no matter what a pump company says about their pump being better than the others, when offered a way to make pumps last several times longer than normal, they want nothing to do with it. I always thought "if you build a better mousetrap". But I found out that money, not performance is the most important part of any product. A product can have unbelievable performance, but if it makes commodities last longer and be replaced less often, better performance will get squashed by the industry.

A pump really has no limit on back pressure. A pump that is made to pump from 1200' can easily handle 500 PSI back pressure. It is the minimum flow that is limiting. No matter the back pressure, there must be enough flow to keep the pump and motor cool. It doesn't take much flow to keep the pump end cool as it really doesn't build heat anymore than like trying to heat water in a blender. Then if the motor amps drop by a good percentage, the motor load is de-rated so much it could safely pump hot water. So. it also takes very little flow to keep the motor cool. As a matter of fact the pump/motor can handle much less flow when restricted with a valve than when the flow is reduced by a VFD. This is true even though the CSV causes back pressure and the VFD does not.

Many decades ago I sold Sta-Rite pumps for $1,000.00 and did a pull and set for $150.00. Paying 500 for the pump I made $650.00 on the complete job. I complained to Sta-Rite about them selling pumps to anyone for 500 bucks at Sears, which back then was the only place a homeowner could buy a pump. On a factory tour in Delevan, WI, they showed me a room full of Sears warranties. Must have been thousands. Said most of these pumps are fine, but they warranty anything Sears sends them because Sears sells so many pumps they don't even argue with them.

Went home, started selling pumps to anyone that wanted one for 500 bucks. But if they want it installed it was $650.00 pull and set. I would even set a Sears pump and make the same money. No warranty, just another 650 if they needed it pulled and set for any reason. After doing the math, most let me sell them a pump and install it for my normal $1150.00, no matter how it was added up. Lol! But I also sold a lot of pumps for 500 bucks out the door and never had to install them. Also, shows how long ago it was as you can't start one of those service trucks for 150 bucks these days.

 

[steve tym]

Most residential motors require .25 feet per second past the motor to keep it cool. That's at full load. Adding back pressure will lower the running amps a little, not sure it's enough to affect cooling flow.
Most residential well pump motors have a thrust bearing rated at 300 pounds. Excessive back pressure can damage it.
Remember Sumo pumps and what happened to them?
My customers are glad I'm in business, and if I couldn't make enough money to stay in business, they would be sad.

 

[Cub 7275]

.........

And for what it is worth, I'm a fan of VFDs, but in my experience lots of folks dump on them without understanding them in detail, and certainly not understanding the ins and outs. I don't get it. I feel like it is another "well my brand of truck/tractor/whatever is better than yours, period, no matter what you say or the facts are". Are VFDs as simple as a pressure switch? No, but that is the pro and con. Are there bad ones out there? Of course! But there are reputable brands and vendors, too. I think it is illustrated in the following effect;

Don't forget the Dunning Kruger effect, though in this case we have an educated person making blanket statements which are questionable. At work we use VFDs on centrifugal pumps, for both constant pressure and constant flow applications. Sure VFDs have drawbacks, but they are light years better than running the pumps at full speed and either dumping all the unneeded flow back to the tank or using throttling valves to choke off the flow like was done in the old days.

The only reason I'd consider a VFD for my well pump would be for the soft start capability. Since my limited experience with two homes shows submersible well pumps can last 20+ years with a traditional bladder tank setup I don't see the cost advantage to having a VFD on my well. Likewise I also don't see the advantage to almost dead heading the pump in order to keep it running excessively in an attempt to reduce how much it cycles.

Now if well pumps today are so cheaply made that they will barely make it to 10 years, like how refrigerators have become, then it might make sense to look at products which might extend a new pump's short life span. So let's see the real world data of how much the pump life is extended when using whatever product and then lets see all the associated costs with that product. Like 5 years longer pump life for $300 total cost (product cost, installation cost, extra electricity costs (or savings if any), etc)? 5 years for $1,000? When is it no longer cost effective compared to a normal setup?

 

[Valveman]

Most residential motors require .25 feet per second past the motor to keep it cool. That's at full load. Adding back pressure will lower the running amps a little, not sure it's enough to affect cooling flow.
Most residential well pump motors have a thrust bearing rated at 300 pounds. Excessive back pressure can damage it.
Remember Sumo pumps and what happened to them?
My customers are glad I'm in business, and if I couldn't make enough money to stay in business, they would be sad.

Yes, at full load motors require 0.25 fps flow to stay cool. But with an amp drop or de-rated by as little as 11% motors can safely pump 130 degree water. With 25% amp drop they can handle 140 degree water. If amps dropping by as little as 11% can make pumps tolerate 130 degree water, it doesn't take much 60-80 degree water to keep the motor cool.

On pumps where the amps only drop 10-15% it is because they have floating stage type designs like Pentair and Franklin. The reason these type pumps do not drop more in amperage is because each impeller is dragging or pushing down on the diffuser below it. While this keeps the amps from dropping as much as floating stack design pumps, it also means there is absolutely no down thrust on the motor bearing. This is true no matter how much back pressure they see.

On floating stack type designs like Grundfos and Goulds, all the down thrust is transferred to the motor thrust bearing. This holds the impellers up off the diffusers no matter how much back pressure is generated, which is why these pumps will drop 30-60% in amperage when restricted with a valve. These type pumps should not be designed to produce more down thrust than the motor thrust bearing can take. If they were, it would not even be possible to produce a performance curve to zero flow. If the thrust bearing is only rated for 300#, the total down thrust of the pump should be less than 300, even at zero flow. Then, as long as the thrust bearing stays cool, it will last a long time.

 

[Valveman]

Don't forget the Dunning Kruger effect, though in this case we have an educated person making blanket statements which are questionable. At work we use VFDs on centrifugal pumps, for both constant pressure and constant flow applications. Sure VFDs have drawbacks, but they are light years better than running the pumps at full speed and either dumping all the unneeded flow back to the tank or using throttling valves to choke off the flow like was done in the old days.

The only reason I'd consider a VFD for my well pump would be for the soft start capability. Since my limited experience with two homes shows submersible well pumps can last 20+ years with a traditional bladder tank setup I don't see the cost advantage to having a VFD on my well. Likewise I also don't see the advantage to almost dead heading the pump in order to keep it running excessively in an attempt to reduce how much it cycles.

Now if well pumps today are so cheaply made that they will barely make it to 10 years, like how refrigerators have become, then it might make sense to look at products which might extend a new pump's short life span. So let's see the real world data of how much the pump life is extended when using whatever product and then lets see all the associated costs with that product. Like 5 years longer pump life for $300 total cost (product cost, installation cost, extra electricity costs (or savings if any), etc)? 5 years for $1,000? When is it no longer cost effective compared to a normal setup?

Everybody uses VFD's on centrifugal pumps, and they are light years better for constant flow or than dumping excess flow back to the tank. But for constant pressure applications, VFD's are not light years better than throttling valves like was done in the old days. Most people are starting to realize that restricting the flow from a centrifugal pump will reduce the amps almost exactly the same as when reducing the speed with a VFD. The pump controlled by a valve is running at full speed, and not susceptible to resonance vibrations that happen when the pumps speed is changed. The pump/motor controlled by a valve is also not seeing harmonics and high voltage spikes created by the pulse width modulator in a VFD. The ball bearings in a motor/pump controlled by a valve also do not see the shaft currents created by a VFD that cause fusion craters, sever pitting, and fluting.

However, employees today are much more likely to be able to program a VFD than to use an amp meter, ohm meter, or even a standard pressure gauge. Skills like knowing a pump needs maintenance by the sound or feel are long gone. Understanding mechanical control valves is a skill even more rare these days. So, I certainly understand the use of VFD's as they can show you on the display what is wrong with the system. That doesn't make VFD's better at the job than a control valve, just more electrical than mechanical and easier for the average person to understand. But that ease comes at a price, both functionally and financially.

Now for submersible pumps like well pumps, soft start is not a good idea. The Kingbury type thrust bearing in these motors needs to get to at least 50% speed in 1 second. The longer it takes to get up to speed the longer the thrust bearing runs dry. At about 50% speed the hydroplane effect happens and a film of water is produced between the thrust plate and pads. Also, pump companies spent decades claiming they needed a little extra zap on start to keep sediment in wells from locking down the impellers. Most claim to have a design that starts better when sanded down than their competitor. Now they say soft start is better. I don't think so.

There have been lots of test done showing how much longer pumps will last when using a Cycle Stop Valve, but that data from pump companies will never be available. My own tests show the CSV makes pumps last several times longer than normal. The first test was on a 2HP that was cycled to death every 2 years. Even accelerating the test by doubling up on the number of cycles the first pump controlled by a CSV lasted 12 years. That is at least a 600% increase in pump life. Other worst case scenarios that were only lasting 3-5 years have now lasted over 30 years with a CSV in charge.

If your normal pressure tank systems last 20 years you have a lightly used system anyway, as most do not last that long. But in your case it may be best to install a VFD controlled pump. That way it would have to come out of the well often enough it may not get stuck in the casing.