More residential well questions

[Valveman]

I would distinguish between the casing, aka the pipe between the surface and the water table keeping the soil out and the screen down at the bottom keeping the sand/gravel in the aquifer out of your well casing and pump. If you have sand or gravel in your water, it could come from a failed well casing, or it could come from a failed/failing screen. Since screening is pretty light weight, my bet would be on the screen, but it certainly also could be the well casing. The screening is not that hard to fix. Fixing the casing is more complicated, but not undoable, though it is often cheaper and easier just to drill a new well.

To answer your question about the rocks and gravel, once the screen gets a hole, the flow of water will continue to suck sand and gravel in. It is important to remember that in water, rocks and gravel have a lower apparent density due to the displaced water, making them easier to transport. The ability of water to move sediment goes up with the velocity to the sixth power (more or less), meaning a small hole in a screen will be extremely effective at spraying sand into the well casing. The low pump pressure suggests to me that your pump impellers have eroded, probably from pumping the sand and gravel that you have been finding in your filters.

$40 will get you a 16' inspection camera that would let you check what is under your well cap...

Well drillers can, and should in my opinion, have a great knowledge and experience, but speaking from personal experience, it can really vary. I've had guys who not only didn't understand the importance of galvanic isolation, but also could not tell brass from galvanized in their own gear. (A locker of plumbing fittings drifted a foot deep, not kept clean, and not sorted by size, or material. I had to find them the right pieces out of their pile. Even a couple of buckets would have gone a long way.)

Ever heard the one about the well drilling company that wouldn't buy all wheel drive trucks? They didn't want their crews to get too confident and get stuck. I.e. leaving the landowner to tow the two wheel drive truck into position...

And for what it is worth, I'm a fan of VFDs, but in my experience lots of folks dump on them without understanding them in detail, and certainly not understanding the ins and outs. I don't get it. I feel like it is another "well my brand of truck/tractor/whatever is better than yours, period, no matter what you say or the facts are". Are VFDs as simple as a pressure switch? No, but that is the pro and con. Are there bad ones out there? Of course! But there are reputable brands and vendors, too. I think it is illustrated in the following effect;

(Notice that I have opined a bunch here...)

All the best,

Peter

I like the graph. I hit "Mount Stupid" about 1990 when I thought VFD's were the best thing since sliced bread. Electronics is what I studied in school. I don't hate VFD's, I think they are fantastic. I have several of them myself. When using a piston, gear pump, or even a conveyor belt you cannot beat a VFD. I spent the last 30 something years on the right side of "Mount Stupid" and now probably know more about them than the people who make them. When using any pump with a centrifugal impeller the Affinity Law is what shoots a VFD in the foot. Centrifugal impellers lose head by the square of the pump speed, which means they don't work well when the speed is reduced. The speed of the tip of the impeller is what makes the pressure. Most pumps can only be slowed by as little as 10% and still produce the head or pressure required. This greatly limits the use of a VFD.

Then when you get WAY on the right side of "Mount Stupid" you will understand the amps drop naturally from a centrifugal pump by just restricting the flow with a simple valve. Since both the VFD and CSV do the same job with a centrifugal pump, it just makes sense the simplest way is best.

Reminds me of the NASA pen story. NASA spent millions developing and producing a pen that would write notes in boiling or sub zero temperature, negative gravity or 8G's, and all the other rigors of space. The Russians had the same problem but saved millions by using a #2 lead pencil, since it would do the same job.

 

[AnotherBueller]

I like the graph. I hit "Mount Stupid" about 1990 when I thought VFD's were the best thing since sliced bread. Electronics is what I studied in school. I don't hate VFD's, I think they are fantastic. I have several of them myself. When using a piston, gear pump, or even a conveyor belt you cannot beat a VFD. I spent the last 30 something years on the right side of "Mount Stupid" and now probably know more about them than the people who make them. When using any pump with a centrifugal impeller the Affinity Law is what shoots a VFD in the foot. Centrifugal impellers lose head by the square of the pump speed, which means they don't work well when the speed is reduced. The speed of the tip of the impeller is what makes the pressure. Most pumps can only be slowed by as little as 10% and still produce the head or pressure required. This greatly limits the use of a VFD.

Then when you get WAY on the right side of "Mount Stupid" you will understand the amps drop naturally from a centrifugal pump by just restricting the flow with a simple valve. Since both the VFD and CSV do the same job with a centrifugal pump, it just makes sense the simplest way is best.

Reminds me of the NASA pen story. NASA spent millions developing and producing a pen that would write notes in boiling or sub zero temperature, negative gravity or 8G's, and all the other rigors of space. The Russians had the same problem but saved millions by using a #2 lead pencil, since it would do the same job.

Ahh, but the lead pencil leaves very very small particles in the air that WILL get into things that could be critical to life support. WE care about OUR astronauts.

 

[Valveman]

I know they filter the air. They even scrub out the CO2. I would imagine Astronaut skin cells and dandruff would be more problem than any graphite that might get air born when writing with a pencil. I can see where an enclosed pencil sharpener would be needed though. But an ink cartridge leaking in a space capsule wouldn't be good either.

 

[AnotherBueller]

I know they filter the air. They even scrub out the CO2. I would imagine Astronaut skin cells and dandruff would be more problem than any graphite that might get air born when writing with a pencil. I can see where an enclosed pencil sharpener would be needed though. But an ink cartridge leaking in a space capsule wouldn't be good either.

Remember graphite is electrically conductive. Maybe that's why they came up with an ink cartridge that won't leak even when its in a vacuum.

 

[paulsharvey]

Or maybe they met the govement RFP requirements, to win the contract... You spec it, I'll bill for it

 

[lilranch2001]

VFD's do have there place. I have one on a hydraulic pump for a plastic injection machine, another for a conveyor belt system, and even treadmills benefit from a VFD. But for any pump with a centrifugal impeller a VFD should be as rare as hen's teeth. Centrifugal impellers lose head by the square of the pump speed. What that means is you can't slow a centrifugal pump down very much or it won't produce any pressure or even get water to the surface of the well. 10% is about as much as you can slow a correctly sized centrifugal pump down and still produce pressure and flow. That doesn't leave much room for a VFD to work or cause ANY savings in energy, as energy required actually goes up not down when the pump speed is reduced.

The average pump guy these days is much more likely to be able to program a VFD than to actually know how a pump works, how to manually adjust a control valve, or to know that a VFD is not needed. Pump manufacturers make VFD's with simple setups and give classes on how to program them. They often tell installers they no longer even need to know how pumps work, just install a VFD and any pump will do any job you want. Of course none of that is true and an easy set up VFD doesn't have the parameters needed to properly control a pump. They add in "sleep" mode, "bump up" mode, and many other things to keep people from having to do the math and set things correctly, because every pump system would need different settings.

While a VFD can keep the pump from cycling on and off for scenarios like large lawn sprinklers with uneven zones, a control valve like a Cycle Stop Valve can do that even better for a fraction of the price, without all the complications of a VFD, and will make the pump last several times longer than a VFD. But that makes the Cycle Stop Valve a "disruptive product" to the pump industry, and they will do everything in their power to keep people from knowing about it or using one. They will even try to make people believe a VFD is the only way to vary the flow from a pump and using a CSV will damage pumps. Most people don't realize restricting a pump with a valve actually makes the pump work easier and run cooler. People have it in their heads that valving off flow from a pump is bad, and pump manufacturers just let people use their own superstitions against themselves. If you don't know a valve makes a pump work easier, they are not going to tell you any different.

They make VFD's that convert single phase house power to three phase to run a three phase motor. They also make single phase drives now that will run a single phase motor. They will pretty much do what ever is needed to make it easy to install a VFD on a house well, as that is incredibly good for their bottom line. I think capitalism is a good thing. But end users need to realize everything is made with planned obsolescence as a top priority and educate themselves to keep from being taken to the cleaners.

Are these cycle stop valves readily available locally or only from the manufacturer?

 

[Valveman]

Are these cycle stop valves readily available locally or only from the manufacturer?

Cycle Stop Valves are stocked by most of the water well supply houses. They are readily available to any pump installer. However, most pump installers will not mention a CSV until you have had several big pressure tanks fail, tried a couple of VFD's, and nothing seems to work or last. Then the installer will say, "Well you know there is this little valve that might help". Lol!

Also, cannot get a CSV at any of the box stores. While a couple of them were interested enough that I made a few in blue and orange just for them. Ultimately, they realized the CSV is a disruptive product and declined to sell them. They even told me they wouldn't put CSV's on their shelves as it would cut into sales of pumps, tanks, check valves, pressure switches, and everything else in the pump section.

We offer a big discount to DIY customers and ship same day as the order from our site.

 

[lilranch2001]

Cycle Stop Valves are stocked by most of the water well supply houses. They are readily available to any pump installer. However, most pump installers will not mention a CSV until you have had several big pressure tanks fail, tried a couple of VFD's, and nothing seems to work or last. Then the installer will say, "Well you know there is this little valve that might help". Lol!

Also, cannot get a CSV at any of the box stores. While a couple of them were interested enough that I made a few in blue and orange just for them. Ultimately, they realized the CSV is a disruptive product and declined to sell them. They even told me they wouldn't put CSV's on their shelves as it would cut into sales of pumps, tanks, check valves, pressure switches, and everything else in the pump section.

We offer a big discount to DIY customers and ship same day as the order from our site.

What is your site?

 

[Xfaxman]

What is your site?

Click the link at the bottom of his post:

 

[steve tym]

The manufacturer is selling direct to the consumer? There's a reason they are not sold by some retailers.