More residential well questions

[MAX-24-Dean]

My understanding of Acceptance Volume is the amount of gallons the pressure tank can accept when there is no pressure on the bladder? I've always believed this to be factual.
The drawdown volume is the amount of gallons that the expansion tank utilizes from high pressure setting to the cut in pressure setting for the pump.

 

[Valveman]

My understanding of Acceptance Volume is the amount of gallons the pressure tank can accept when there is no pressure on the bladder? I've always believed this to be factual.
The drawdown volume is the amount of gallons that the expansion tank utilizes from high pressure setting to the cut in pressure setting for the pump.

If there is no pressure on the bladder the acceptance volume of an 86 gallon tank should be 86 gallons. Both are worthless numbers because the drawdown of an 86 gallon tank is only 23 gallons at most.

 

[paulsharvey]

So, rather than argue about some of this; I have a question for the OPs situation. You state the pump only generates 30 PSI. Where was this at? What did it used to generate? Was thus an actual pressure reading, or a guess? Are you getting adequate flow, but limited pressure? If yiu turn everything off, does it hold 30 psi for an extended time? Is it peak of 30, but drops down to 20 or up to 40 sometimes? Do you know what your switch is set at?

Edit: sorry, I see you say flow is fine, and it holds the pressure. Pressure being low, but plenty of flow, could be a bad switch/fatigued spring. Now, if they hooked up directly to riser, and intentionally held switch to closed, and only generated 30 psi, with no leak down, that would be a pump problem. I didn't catch where the switch is cutting it off at 30, or stays running, trying to get higher, and if I missed that part, sorry

 

[steve tym]

The acceptance factor is the amount of water you can put in the tank before the diaphram starts to stretch, and it should never stretch. I only use this number when I'm going to be running some really weird pressures.

 

[Cub 7275]

So, rather than argue about some of this; I have a question for the OPs situation. You state the pump only generates 30 PSI. Where was this at? What did it used to generate? Was thus an actual pressure reading, or a guess? Are you getting adequate flow, but limited pressure? If yiu turn everything off, does it hold 30 psi for an extended time? Is it peak of 30, but drops down to 20 or up to 40 sometimes? Do you know what your switch is set at?

Edit: sorry, I see you say flow is fine, and it holds the pressure. Pressure being low, but plenty of flow, could be a bad switch/fatigued spring. Now, if they hooked up directly to riser, and intentionally held switch to closed, and only generated 30 psi, with no leak down, that would be a pump problem. I didn't catch where the switch is cutting it off at 30, or stays running, trying to get higher, and if I missed that part, sorry

The switch was a 30/50. One day I was in the basement and noticed the pump seemed to be running for a long time when it should have been cycling or just off. The pressure is actual, or close enough since there are three working gauges and one bad one on the system. I isolated the house from the bladder tank and when the pump still wouldn't make the shut off pressure I readjusted the switch so it would shut off. For holding pressure, the gauge didn't move for the minute or so I watched it. I'd expect there to be a relatively quick drop if there was a large leak in the system which was not allowing the pump to make pressure.

Over the phone another well place said that they could play around with getting the pump out, use acid for a week, etc but no more water from that point forward and no guarantees. They said in the worst case it could cost up to $4K. And if they can't get the pump out or the casing is bad we have to pay for a new well on top of the attempted pump removal work. Neither of those companies do camera inspections.

Adding to the difficulty is the odd Flow Rite Products cover with the center bolt going down to a cam or dog locking pitless connection together, kind of like that Snappy arrangement I'd guess. My understanding is the Flow Rite cover cannot be removed without pulling the entire assembly or everything can drop down the well, though I guess it wouldn't go far if the pump is stuck.

How large an opening do these inspection cameras need? There is a small opening where the wires go into the casing. Looking in with an automotive repair camera confirms the 1" pipe is connected to the underside of the cover. I guess a slot could be cut in the side of the casing to feed the camera in, but it would be useless if the camera can't get past the pitless setup.

Correction, the previous owner had the pump replaced in 1999 with 63' of 1" galvanized drop pipe, not in 1991 and 68' as I misremembered. The reciept also had a line item "cleaned out well" for $500. I assume that was blowing the well clean with compressed air?

 

[paulsharvey]

Unfortunately, that does sound like the pump. Even if the riser was almost rusted closed, that would reduce flow, but would allow pressure to build. Just being the cheap a$$ I am, I would probably spend the $15 to replace the switch first, but I don't expect that will do anything.

 

[ponytug]

The switch was a 30/50. One day I was in the basement and noticed the pump seemed to be running for a long time when it should have been cycling or just off. The pressure is actual, or close enough since there are three working gauges and one bad one on the system. I isolated the house from the bladder tank and when the pump still wouldn't make the shut off pressure I readjusted the switch so it would shut off. For holding pressure, the gauge didn't move for the minute or so I watched it. I'd expect there to be a relatively quick drop if there was a large leak in the system which was not allowing the pump to make pressure.

Over the phone another well place said that they could play around with getting the pump out, use acid for a week, etc but no more water from that point forward and no guarantees. They said in the worst case it could cost up to $4K. And if they can't get the pump out or the casing is bad we have to pay for a new well on top of the attempted pump removal work. Neither of those companies do camera inspections.

Adding to the difficulty is the odd Flow Rite Products cover with the center bolt going down to a cam or dog locking pitless connection together, kind of like that Snappy arrangement I'd guess. My understanding is the Flow Rite cover cannot be removed without pulling the entire assembly or everything can drop down the well, though I guess it wouldn't go far if the pump is stuck.

How large an opening do these inspection cameras need? There is a small opening where the wires go into the casing. Looking in with an automotive repair camera confirms the 1" pipe is connected to the underside of the cover. I guess a slot could be cut in the side of the casing to feed the camera in, but it would be useless if the camera can't get past the pitless setup.

Correction, the previous owner had the pump replaced in 1999 with 63' of 1" galvanized drop pipe, not in 1991 and 68' as I misremembered. The reciept also had a line item "cleaned out well" for $500. I assume that was blowing the well clean with compressed air?

Do you have this well cap?

More at

Help please pitless well adapter and cap issues

Hi everyone, I live in michigan and it is about -5 f so the line running from this adapter froze and i was getting no water to my pressure switch. So after putting heat on it over night and not having any luck we decided to take the cap off the well and take a look inside with a heat gun...

terrylove.com

Generally, cleaning means blowing the well out with compressed air; some companies will agitate the well with water jets, but that is dependent on your well conditions.

I wouldn't use acid unless an inspection showed large amounts of mineral deposits.

In this day and age, I am a little surprised that every one of your local well drillers doesn't have inspection cameras. Perhaps it is because many of the wells are shallow and customers don't want to pay the cost of a separate inspection and just go to pulling everything out of the well.

Locally, a 100' well would be shallow. 200-300' is more normal, and one person down the street has one 700' down.

Lots of places rent inspection cameras, e.g. Home Depot, and United rentals.

GENERAL WIRE SPRING Drain Camera Rental CGPF-ECAM-ACE - The Home Depot

Rent a Drain Camera Rental from one of our over 1,200 THD rental locations. Call your local store for same day pickup availability.

www.homedepot.com

That model has a 0.5" OD. As these are often used on sewer lines, I would clean it before using it...

Vevor makes an inspection camera that you could buy for not much more. While the camera is IP68 rated one user has it at the bottom of their well under 100' of water, so it appears not to have instantly died at that depth.

Since this is a drinking water well, don't forget to put enough bleach or calcium hypochlorite in afterwards sanitize the well and water when you are done.

Good luck!

All the best,

Peter

 

[Cub 7275]

Yep that is the cap and what that guy did is exactly what I wanted to avoid when I asked about the cap on Terry's forum back in 2012. The same VFD hate happened back on that thread in 2012 too

On our well cap the pump guy screwed a lifting eye in place of the center bolt when he attempted to pull it.

The pump guy said if the casing fails above the pump there could be lots of sediment on top of the pump making it hard to get out. Inspection cameras are $200 to $300 to rent around here, but it is money thrown away if it cant get past the pitless or if the well is silted up above the pump covering the failed section from view. All this money and effort hoping that a steel pipe in the ground 52 years hasn't corroded through anywhere along its length and that it still has at least 15 years of life left seems like a bad gamble imo.

I also find it difficult to understand where the small stones in the water filters are coming from if the casing is still good. I wouldn't think the upward water velocity in the 4" casing from pumping 10 gpm would be able to lift small stones from down where the screen might have failed. With a failed screen do sediment and stones gradually build from the bottom up in the casing?

 

[ponytug]

Yep that is the cap and what that guy did is exactly what I wanted to avoid when I asked about the cap on Terry's forum back in 2012. The same VFD hate happened back on that thread in 2012 too

On our well cap the pump guy screwed a lifting eye in place of the center bolt when he attempted to pull it.

The pump guy said if the casing fails above the pump there could be lots of sediment on top of the pump making it hard to get out. Inspection cameras are $200 to $300 to rent around here, but it is money thrown away if it cant get past the pitless or if the well is silted up above the pump covering the failed section from view. All this money and effort hoping that a steel pipe in the ground 52 years hasn't corroded through anywhere along its length and that it still has at least 15 years of life left seems like a bad gamble imo.

I also find it difficult to understand where the small stones in the water filters are coming from if the casing is still good. I wouldn't think the upward water velocity in the 4" casing from pumping 10 gpm would be able to lift small stones from down where the screen might have failed. With a failed screen do sediment and stones gradually build from the bottom up in the casing?

I would distinguish between the casing, aka the pipe between the surface and the water table keeping the soil out and the screen down at the bottom keeping the sand/gravel in the aquifer out of your well casing and pump. If you have sand or gravel in your water, it could come from a failed well casing, or it could come from a failed/failing screen. Since screening is pretty light weight, my bet would be on the screen, but it certainly also could be the well casing. The screening is not that hard to fix. Fixing the casing is more complicated, but not undoable, though it is often cheaper and easier just to drill a new well.

To answer your question about the rocks and gravel, once the screen gets a hole, the flow of water will continue to suck sand and gravel in. It is important to remember that in water, rocks and gravel have a lower apparent density due to the displaced water, making them easier to transport. The ability of water to move sediment goes up with the velocity to the sixth power (more or less), meaning a small hole in a screen will be extremely effective at spraying sand into the well casing. The low pump pressure suggests to me that your pump impellers have eroded, probably from pumping the sand and gravel that you have been finding in your filters.

$40 will get you a 16' inspection camera that would let you check what is under your well cap...

Well drillers can, and should in my opinion, have a great knowledge and experience, but speaking from personal experience, it can really vary. I've had guys who not only didn't understand the importance of galvanic isolation, but also could not tell brass from galvanized in their own gear. (A locker of plumbing fittings drifted a foot deep, not kept clean, and not sorted by size, or material. I had to find them the right pieces out of their pile. Even a couple of buckets would have gone a long way.)

Ever heard the one about the well drilling company that wouldn't buy all wheel drive trucks? They didn't want their crews to get too confident and get stuck. I.e. leaving the landowner to tow the two wheel drive truck into position...

And for what it is worth, I'm a fan of VFDs, but in my experience lots of folks dump on them without understanding them in detail, and certainly not understanding the ins and outs. I don't get it. I feel like it is another "well my brand of truck/tractor/whatever is better than yours, period, no matter what you say or the facts are". Are VFDs as simple as a pressure switch? No, but that is the pro and con. Are there bad ones out there? Of course! But there are reputable brands and vendors, too. I think it is illustrated in the following effect;

(Notice that I have opined a bunch here...)

All the best,

Peter

 

[Valveman]

Yep that is the cap and what that guy did is exactly what I wanted to avoid when I asked about the cap on Terry's forum back in 2012. The same VFD hate happened back on that thread in 2012 too

On our well cap the pump guy screwed a lifting eye in place of the center bolt when he attempted to pull it.

The pump guy said if the casing fails above the pump there could be lots of sediment on top of the pump making it hard to get out. Inspection cameras are $200 to $300 to rent around here, but it is money thrown away if it cant get past the pitless or if the well is silted up above the pump covering the failed section from view. All this money and effort hoping that a steel pipe in the ground 52 years hasn't corroded through anywhere along its length and that it still has at least 15 years of life left seems like a bad gamble imo.

I also find it difficult to understand where the small stones in the water filters are coming from if the casing is still good. I wouldn't think the upward water velocity in the 4" casing from pumping 10 gpm would be able to lift small stones from down where the screen might have failed. With a failed screen do sediment and stones gradually build from the bottom up in the casing?

It would take more than 50 GPM to lift small stones in 4" casing. I don't think they came from below, unless the well filled in to the bottom of the motor. Then there would be enough velocity between the motor and casing to bring up rocks to the suction. But rocks on top of the pump most likely came from parted or holes in the casing above. Just one of those rocks can sure make it hard to get a 3.5" pump out of 4" casing.

 

[Valveman]

I would distinguish between the casing, aka the pipe between the surface and the water table keeping the soil out and the screen down at the bottom keeping the sand/gravel in the aquifer out of your well casing and pump. If you have sand or gravel in your water, it could come from a failed well casing, or it could come from a failed/failing screen. Since screening is pretty light weight, my bet would be on the screen, but it certainly also could be the well casing. The screening is not that hard to fix. Fixing the casing is more complicated, but not undoable, though it is often cheaper and easier just to drill a new well.

To answer your question about the rocks and gravel, once the screen gets a hole, the flow of water will continue to suck sand and gravel in. It is important to remember that in water, rocks and gravel have a lower apparent density due to the displaced water, making them easier to transport. The ability of water to move sediment goes up with the velocity to the sixth power (more or less), meaning a small hole in a screen will be extremely effective at spraying sand into the well casing. The low pump pressure suggests to me that your pump impellers have eroded, probably from pumping the sand and gravel that you have been finding in your filters.

$40 will get you a 16' inspection camera that would let you check what is under your well cap...

Well drillers can, and should in my opinion, have a great knowledge and experience, but speaking from personal experience, it can really vary. I've had guys who not only didn't understand the importance of galvanic isolation, but also could not tell brass from galvanized in their own gear. (A locker of plumbing fittings drifted a foot deep, not kept clean, and not sorted by size, or material. I had to find them the right pieces out of their pile. Even a couple of buckets would have gone a long way.)

Ever heard the one about the well drilling company that wouldn't buy all wheel drive trucks? They didn't want their crews to get too confident and get stuck. I.e. leaving the landowner to tow the two wheel drive truck into position...

And for what it is worth, I'm a fan of VFDs, but in my experience lots of folks dump on them without understanding them in detail, and certainly not understanding the ins and outs. I don't get it. I feel like it is another "well my brand of truck/tractor/whatever is better than yours, period, no matter what you say or the facts are". Are VFDs as simple as a pressure switch? No, but that is the pro and con. Are there bad ones out there? Of course! But there are reputable brands and vendors, too. I think it is illustrated in the following effect;

(Notice that I have opined a bunch here...)

All the best,

Peter

I like the graph. I hit "Mount Stupid" about 1990 when I thought VFD's were the best thing since sliced bread. Electronics is what I studied in school. I don't hate VFD's, I think they are fantastic. I have several of them myself. When using a piston, gear pump, or even a conveyor belt you cannot beat a VFD. I spent the last 30 something years on the right side of "Mount Stupid" and now probably know more about them than the people who make them. When using any pump with a centrifugal impeller the Affinity Law is what shoots a VFD in the foot. Centrifugal impellers lose head by the square of the pump speed, which means they don't work well when the speed is reduced. The speed of the tip of the impeller is what makes the pressure. Most pumps can only be slowed by as little as 10% and still produce the head or pressure required. This greatly limits the use of a VFD.

Then when you get WAY on the right side of "Mount Stupid" you will understand the amps drop naturally from a centrifugal pump by just restricting the flow with a simple valve. Since both the VFD and CSV do the same job with a centrifugal pump, it just makes sense the simplest way is best.

Reminds me of the NASA pen story. NASA spent millions developing and producing a pen that would write notes in boiling or sub zero temperature, negative gravity or 8G's, and all the other rigors of space. The Russians had the same problem but saved millions by using a #2 lead pencil, since it would do the same job.

 

[AnotherBueller]

I like the graph. I hit "Mount Stupid" about 1990 when I thought VFD's were the best thing since sliced bread. Electronics is what I studied in school. I don't hate VFD's, I think they are fantastic. I have several of them myself. When using a piston, gear pump, or even a conveyor belt you cannot beat a VFD. I spent the last 30 something years on the right side of "Mount Stupid" and now probably know more about them than the people who make them. When using any pump with a centrifugal impeller the Affinity Law is what shoots a VFD in the foot. Centrifugal impellers lose head by the square of the pump speed, which means they don't work well when the speed is reduced. The speed of the tip of the impeller is what makes the pressure. Most pumps can only be slowed by as little as 10% and still produce the head or pressure required. This greatly limits the use of a VFD.

Then when you get WAY on the right side of "Mount Stupid" you will understand the amps drop naturally from a centrifugal pump by just restricting the flow with a simple valve. Since both the VFD and CSV do the same job with a centrifugal pump, it just makes sense the simplest way is best.

Reminds me of the NASA pen story. NASA spent millions developing and producing a pen that would write notes in boiling or sub zero temperature, negative gravity or 8G's, and all the other rigors of space. The Russians had the same problem but saved millions by using a #2 lead pencil, since it would do the same job.

Ahh, but the lead pencil leaves very very small particles in the air that WILL get into things that could be critical to life support. WE care about OUR astronauts.

 

[Valveman]

I know they filter the air. They even scrub out the CO2. I would imagine Astronaut skin cells and dandruff would be more problem than any graphite that might get air born when writing with a pencil. I can see where an enclosed pencil sharpener would be needed though. But an ink cartridge leaking in a space capsule wouldn't be good either.

 

[AnotherBueller]

I know they filter the air. They even scrub out the CO2. I would imagine Astronaut skin cells and dandruff would be more problem than any graphite that might get air born when writing with a pencil. I can see where an enclosed pencil sharpener would be needed though. But an ink cartridge leaking in a space capsule wouldn't be good either.

Remember graphite is electrically conductive. Maybe that's why they came up with an ink cartridge that won't leak even when its in a vacuum.

 

[paulsharvey]

Or maybe they met the govement RFP requirements, to win the contract... You spec it, I'll bill for it

 

[lilranch2001]

VFD's do have there place. I have one on a hydraulic pump for a plastic injection machine, another for a conveyor belt system, and even treadmills benefit from a VFD. But for any pump with a centrifugal impeller a VFD should be as rare as hen's teeth. Centrifugal impellers lose head by the square of the pump speed. What that means is you can't slow a centrifugal pump down very much or it won't produce any pressure or even get water to the surface of the well. 10% is about as much as you can slow a correctly sized centrifugal pump down and still produce pressure and flow. That doesn't leave much room for a VFD to work or cause ANY savings in energy, as energy required actually goes up not down when the pump speed is reduced.

The average pump guy these days is much more likely to be able to program a VFD than to actually know how a pump works, how to manually adjust a control valve, or to know that a VFD is not needed. Pump manufacturers make VFD's with simple setups and give classes on how to program them. They often tell installers they no longer even need to know how pumps work, just install a VFD and any pump will do any job you want. Of course none of that is true and an easy set up VFD doesn't have the parameters needed to properly control a pump. They add in "sleep" mode, "bump up" mode, and many other things to keep people from having to do the math and set things correctly, because every pump system would need different settings.

While a VFD can keep the pump from cycling on and off for scenarios like large lawn sprinklers with uneven zones, a control valve like a Cycle Stop Valve can do that even better for a fraction of the price, without all the complications of a VFD, and will make the pump last several times longer than a VFD. But that makes the Cycle Stop Valve a "disruptive product" to the pump industry, and they will do everything in their power to keep people from knowing about it or using one. They will even try to make people believe a VFD is the only way to vary the flow from a pump and using a CSV will damage pumps. Most people don't realize restricting a pump with a valve actually makes the pump work easier and run cooler. People have it in their heads that valving off flow from a pump is bad, and pump manufacturers just let people use their own superstitions against themselves. If you don't know a valve makes a pump work easier, they are not going to tell you any different.

They make VFD's that convert single phase house power to three phase to run a three phase motor. They also make single phase drives now that will run a single phase motor. They will pretty much do what ever is needed to make it easy to install a VFD on a house well, as that is incredibly good for their bottom line. I think capitalism is a good thing. But end users need to realize everything is made with planned obsolescence as a top priority and educate themselves to keep from being taken to the cleaners.

Are these cycle stop valves readily available locally or only from the manufacturer?

 

[Valveman]

Are these cycle stop valves readily available locally or only from the manufacturer?

Cycle Stop Valves are stocked by most of the water well supply houses. They are readily available to any pump installer. However, most pump installers will not mention a CSV until you have had several big pressure tanks fail, tried a couple of VFD's, and nothing seems to work or last. Then the installer will say, "Well you know there is this little valve that might help". Lol!

Also, cannot get a CSV at any of the box stores. While a couple of them were interested enough that I made a few in blue and orange just for them. Ultimately, they realized the CSV is a disruptive product and declined to sell them. They even told me they wouldn't put CSV's on their shelves as it would cut into sales of pumps, tanks, check valves, pressure switches, and everything else in the pump section.

We offer a big discount to DIY customers and ship same day as the order from our site.

 

[lilranch2001]

Cycle Stop Valves are stocked by most of the water well supply houses. They are readily available to any pump installer. However, most pump installers will not mention a CSV until you have had several big pressure tanks fail, tried a couple of VFD's, and nothing seems to work or last. Then the installer will say, "Well you know there is this little valve that might help". Lol!

Also, cannot get a CSV at any of the box stores. While a couple of them were interested enough that I made a few in blue and orange just for them. Ultimately, they realized the CSV is a disruptive product and declined to sell them. They even told me they wouldn't put CSV's on their shelves as it would cut into sales of pumps, tanks, check valves, pressure switches, and everything else in the pump section.

We offer a big discount to DIY customers and ship same day as the order from our site.

What is your site?

 

[Xfaxman]

What is your site?

Click the link at the bottom of his post:

 

[steve tym]

The manufacturer is selling direct to the consumer? There's a reason they are not sold by some retailers.