More tractor buying advice.

Yankee · Jul 14, 2004

Bob, my take on the weight comments is a bit different. I'd say that if a given tractor, in given soil conditions, etc. (as you laid out) didn't rut the yard, then perhaps the extra weight that is being touted as a dirt-working advantage isn't there either. For example, one way I can get rid of a tractor weight problem vis-a-vis a lawn is by using wide turf tires. At the same time, however, I'd give up some portion of the traction - which, some opinions seemingly to the contrary, isn't dependent on just weight. The Kioti partisans always seem to want to have it both ways - weight is always an advantage and never a disadvantage. It just ain't so - except, as you point out, in very specific circumstances. It's not true for Kioti, and it's not true for me (Kubota 7610) either. My tractor is too heavy to mow unless my yard dries out for at least a couple of days. After 4 or 5, I could drive my neighbor's combine across it without a problem. For any who think I'm exaggerating, the property was his before it was mine, and he DID use his equipment on it!

The problem with the discussion is there are a non-trivial number of variables, among which are tires and tire considerations (size and size ratios front to rear, type, composition, inflation), weight itself, front-rear weight balance, the traction characteristics of the driveline, 4wd vs 2wd, handling, etc. This is unlike physical size, which is black and white - you either fit through the gate or you don't.

KiotiJohn · Jul 14, 2004

( The Kioti partisans always seem to want to have it both ways - weight is always an advantage and never a disadvantage. )
I find this statement both insulting and untrue. In the very many posts I have made, I have stated many disadvantages and advantages to the size and weight of the CK20. I have also read many posts from other Kioti owners who have done the same.
Your sterotypical statement is just common. John

SteveH_CT · Jul 14, 2004

I have to agree on the weight comments - I never got into the comparison of weight on the tractor models I was shopping, so I don't know where my 4310 falls in the mix. I run a FEL and BH all the time, and it is positively the exception that I don't leave tire marks on the lawn. If I go in 2wd I can scoot across dry firm lawn without too much marking - but if I repeat the path too many times there are ruts...period. Forget about it if it's slightly damp... or with 4wd on, grass is torn and ruts are made everywhere. I'd never consider my machine to be a good choice for mowing, at least as Bob said, on my soil conditions.

Since my experience over the past 100hrs of use if limited to my own tractor I can only say that I never have trouble loading my bucket regardless of what I'm digging into, and from what I've read I'd be on the "less than heavy" side of the scale for a 32hp tractor. Personnaly I don't find the "heavier is better" argument in any way compelling.

DannyD · Jul 14, 2004

Cat 1. My 23 has a cat 1, my 2200 has a cat 1. I can put the same tiller, rake, plow, what ever you want on mine as you can. I was told by the jd dealer before I bought the bota, his were limited cat 1, meaning that you had to come back to him for implements. I have never bought an implement worrying about it, they all fit.

Would a dealer please step in here on this

Yankee · Jul 15, 2004

"I find this statement both insulting and untrue."

It wasn't aimed at you, though given the context of the thread your reaction makes some sense. I don't take some of same types of broadsides aimed at Kubota partisans as insulting me personally. Nonetheless, I'll retract the "Kioti partisans," which can be read as over-broad, and replace it with "Kioti pushers," which will perhaps clarify my intentions. After all, there's nothing wrong with being a brand fan, while there is with advocating mindlessly.

"Your sterotypical statement is just common."

I see differences among the brand pushers as do others. I.e., there's a reason for the stereotype and I see no need to retract the generalization, as such. The weight theme is one that plays over and over with Kioti, like the aluminum components do with Kubota, the supposed arrogance of Deere dealers, blah, blah, blah. I do apologize for not being more sensitive to implications of the thread context and your participation.

Bob_Skurka · Jul 15, 2004

Yankee, I tend to agree with you on weight issues, you wrote it more clearly than I did with more detail. Your addition of the variables is probably more accurate than my statement that presumes that the machines have equivalent tires, etc.

KiotiJohn, I think you will find that sand is far more forgiving than clay, clay is less forgiving than loam, etc. Is your observation of my statements accurate that I wrote it in too authoritative of a way, perhaps so, I certainly won't argue that point. I am often blunt and make presumptions.

However, I am not trying to argue, just state the obvious as based on the laws of physics and nature. A heavier tractor of a given size/configuration (as pointed out by Yankee) will be more stable than a lighter tractor of the same size/configuration/etc when doing work with a FEL. However, a light tractor can add ballast to eliminate the natural advantage of the heavier tractor. Sure the heavier machine can also add balast, etc etc etc

I think perhaps the entire weight issue is overblown by all sides of the discussion? What I outlined is still basically sound, the fact is that some people may find more weight a problem and some may find more weight an advantage. It is not clear cut. And it can be compensated for in numerous ways such as changing the tires, adding or removing weight, etc as your conditions dictate. Most people, however, won't have an extra set of wheel & rims to change to when switching from mowing to FEL work or visa versa, most have to make do with a compramise and each has to determine what is the best compramise for their sand, or loam, or clay, or mixture of soil, rain, snow, lawn type and the set of tasks they hope to perform.

DannyD, the limited Cat 1, as it has become referred to, only affects people who don't realize it or who share implements, or who want to take ANY brand of implement and attach it to their machine. And even then, it only effects some types of implements. For example, Befco mower decks are some of the highest quality & heavily built decks available, yet they choose to make their lower links wider than standard measurements so (at least some of their) decks will not even work with a Quick Hitch, and not with some tractors. Some implements cannot have their pins reversed because of their design, my rear blade is one of those. Some implements, like rear blades and rakes, are designed so they can be rotated in a 360 degree circle. However the lift height on some tractors will not allow for full rotation, thus the manufacturers have come out with shorter blades to allow for the rotation. Many brands of PHDs are also often cited as an implement that will not work well with a Sub-CUT unless shorter shafts are used, etc. This is becoming less of an issue with time as the Sub-CUT category of machines is forcing manufacturers to make implemements that fit these smaller machines. I think last year it was a much bigger issue than this year, and 2 years ago was an even bigger issue.

Yankee · Jul 15, 2004

"I think perhaps the entire weight issue is overblown by all sides of the discussion?"

Now maybe we're getting somewhere. The question is at what point does weight become a significant enough factor to overwhelm other variables? I doubt that a few hundred pounds difference between small-frame CUTs would do it. Where I see a clear differentiation is the average CUT vs. a lower-HP heavyweight, e.g., a Kioti CK20 or Kubota 7610 vs, say, a Mahindra 2310 (the CK20 and 7610 both under 2000 lbs., and the Mahindra over 3000 lbs.). There IS a class difference there. The Kioti CK25 is also in the heavyweight class, as well as being what would, in some other brands, 2 steps up in frame size for the HP.

KiotiJohn · Jul 15, 2004

( Now maybe we're getting somewhere. The question is at what point does weight become a significant enough factor to overwhelm other variables? I doubt that a few hundred pounds difference between small-frame CUTs would do it. )
I agree totally with you on this point. The little difference in weight between "comparable" tractors is probably not all that important, however, if there is, say 500-700 pounds difference, I always recommend the higher weight simply for better use of the available HP in a given tractor. I wouldn't say, at that weight difference, that either dirt or lawn work would be that much affected. While my CK20 does a great job with loader work, I would need a much heavier tractor to really say it was excellent at dirt work, and I didn't have to "work" the bucket to get it full and go. At the same time, as I posted before, I have no problems with rutting or tearing up of my lawn with my CK, even after all the rain we've had these last several weeks. I agree with Bob that clay is different, and that other soils are different, thus my objection to a very specific statement that the heavier Kioti and Mahindra would be advantageous for dirt work and disadvantageous for turf work. One just can't say that across all lines and it can mislead a potential buyer into thinking he/she must go one way or the other. We should all remember to state that the reader should take into account his or her own circumstances. I'm sure I've been too "sure" of many things in my posts, but I'm trying to do better! John

SteveH_CT · Jul 15, 2004

Yankee - Well put - That's what I've referred to in other posts as the "Buy Mine, Buy Mine" syndrome. I'd swear sometimes that someone is getting a cut on the sale if they swing someone over to their brand. I really care very little what brand someone settles on, the fact is, they are all incredibly good tools and help us do far more than we ever could without one.

I've read a lot of shots at the sub-cuts as glorified garden tractors... I saw an advertisement for the Simplicity Legacy ... a pretty large garden tractor, or a very small CUT, either way, it's FEL had a 500lb lift... and I thought to myself, That's still a lot more than I can lift. We've had some good discussions lately on not getting inundated with stats when looking and shopping. I wholeheartedly agree with that method. Try em all, check out the dealer, and the choice becomes pretty obvious to most folks which tractor they want.

Bob - You're right about the weight thing as well. Being able to add weight to a lighter tractor is probably the best all round solution for most CUT owners. If you buy a tank you can never take that weight off. I think a lot of factors go into the usefulness of a tractor at a given task - more or less weight, tire choice, quality of hydraulics, and of course implement design. I think of all the things I like about my tractor, without a doubt the best thing I've done to enhance it's usefullness was the toothbar. It's amazing what that has added to the effectiveness of my machine as I clear land and do loader work.

To20Chris · Jul 15, 2004

Yankee, while there certainly are disadvantages to higher weight (and I have said so many times), physics dictates that all things being equal, more weight = more traction EVERY TIME. If you compare different tire types and sizes, soil conditions, etc., then all bets are off, but that is apples to oranges. The only traction you have is that provided by gravity and friction. The difference in traction will be directly proportional to the difference in weight. Now if you get into thick mud, you are no longer dealing with a solid surface, more like a liquid, and things may behave differently. There a lighter tractor may displace less mud and and not sink in as far.

So if you want to do any activity that involves pulling or pushing or otherwise using the tractor drive wheels to move things, and you don't care about leaving markes, then weight IS an advantage. It is also an advantage when lifting heavy things as it acts as balast.

A lot of people don't want a heavy tractor, and it probably is not a good match for uses such as mowing, but the advantages of higher weight in many other uses are not opinion, they are fact.

And gravity has no idea what color or brand the tractor is - and I have recommended heavier Kubotas (where appropriate) on the Kub boards.