Oil & Fuel Motor Oil as the Hydraulic Oil in Power Trac

[DieselPower]

The majority of standard UTF's are 10W/20 viscosity, winter UTF's are usually in the 5W/20 range and some specialty UTF's like UTF RED are 10W/30.

 

[DHS]

My PT-422 has 560 hour and I decided it was time to change the hydraulic oil. This thread and DieselPower’s comments in particular convinced me I should use hydraulic oil instead of motor oil. Previous discussion indicated some value synthetic oil provided in the high-pressure hydraulic environment. Another concern is the cold winters in South Dakota require low multi-viscosity oil for starting. The UTF red looks like a great product but I looked for a local product for easy procurement/replacement.

This weekend I drained the old fluid and installed Maxtron THF+ from Cennex. This is a 5w-30 viscosity synthetic blend hydraulic fluid. There is not much information on the web. These are links to the product.

High Plains Co-operative

The MSDS indicates Maxtron THF+ is 20-30% synthetic.

http://cenexenergy.com/\LinkedContent\PDF\Lube\MSDS\TractorFluid\MAXTRON-THF+.pdf

My cost was $13.30/gal plus tax.

I will see how it works this summer in the heat and next winter during the cold.

Dale

 

[KentT]

Since I'm a bit of a "maverick" and am running Amsoil Series 2000 20W50 Racing Oil to try to get the maximum possible torque out of my old-style PT-425 wheel motors, I thought I'd weigh in...

First of all -- can you safely run motor oil instead of hydraulic oil? Well, according to Eaton's Char-Lynn application guide for Low Speed High Torque Motors:

Fluid Selection

Premium grade petroleum based hydraulic fluids will provide the best performance in Eaton hydraulic components. These fluids typically contain additives that are beneficial to hydraulic systems. Eaton recommends fluids that contain anti-wear agents, rust inhibitors, anti-foaming agents, and oxidation inhibitors. Premium grade petroleum based hydraulic fluids carry an ISO VG rating.

SAE grade crankcase oils may be used in systems that employ Eaton hydraulic components, but it should be noted that these oils may not contain all the recommended additives. This means using crankcase oils may increase fluid maintenance requirements.

Hydraulic fluids that contain VI (viscosity index) improvers, sometimes called multi-viscosity oils, may be used that employ Eaton hydraulic components. These VI improved fluids are known to "shear-down" with use. This means that their actual viscosity drops below the rated values.

Fluid maintenance must be increased if VI improved fluids are used. Automotive automatic transmission fluids contain VI improvers.

Synthetic fluids may be used in Eaton hydraulic components. A reputable fluid supplier can provide information on synthetic fluids. Review applications that require the use of synthetic fluids with your Eaton representative.

http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/pdfs/E-MOLO-MC001-E2_Intro.pdf

Given that caution about desired additives, shearing of multi-viscosity oils, and the possibility of increased flluid maintenance being required, let's look at the properties of the Amsoil synthetic engine oil that I used:

Unbeatable Wear Protection

AMSOIL Series 2000 20W-50 Synthetic Racing Oil is specially formulated to carry the oil's wear reducing and heat transferring agents to the engine's surfaces and hold them there. By positioning vital agents where they are most needed, Series 2000 provides a degree of engine protection unavailable with any other oil.​

​

AMSOIL Series 2000 20W-50 Synthetic Racing Oil clings tenaciously to engine surfaces, so it shields engines from start-up wear. Further enhancing wear protection, AMSOIL Series 2000 20W-50 Synthetic Racing Oil's wax-free lubricating basestocks assure rapid post-start-up lubrication.​

AMSOIL Series 2000 20W-50 Synthetic Racing Oil contains powerful corrosion preventives, detergents, dispersants and anti-foam agents to protect engines from the harmful effects of water, acids, debris, deposit-forming materials and air entrained oil.​

Boosts Power, Speed and Efficiency​

AMSOIL Series 2000 20W-50 Synthetic Racing Oil reduces friction so effectively that virtually none of the engine's power is wasted on "drag." Its extraordinary formulation gives Series 2000 a coefficient of friction lower than that of other fine, race-formulated synthetic oils. With Series 2000, vehicles accelerate fast, attain top speeds and use fuel efficiently.

Maintains Integrity in Demanding Conditions

AMSOIL Series 2000 20W-50 Synthetic Racing Oil maintains a constant high level of performance over time because it resists the damage many oils undergo in high temperature, intense shearing force conditions.​

Advanced thermal stability allows AMSOIL Series 2000 20W-50 Synthetic Racing Oil to circulate readily, thus protecting hard-to-reach areas that heat-damaged oils grow too thick to reach.​

Superior shear stability allows AMSOIL Series 2000 20W-50 Synthetic Racing Oil to provide a dependable pad of protection between parts even after exposure to shearing forces that tear lesser oils apart.​

SERVICE LIFE​

Non-turbo-charged, non-race gasoline engines: Change the oil at intervals up to three times longer than recommended by the manufacturer, or one year, whichever comes first.​

Turbo-charged, non-race gasoline engines: drain oil at intervals up to three times longer than those recommended by the engine manufacturer, or six months, whichever comes first.​

Marine four-cycle gasoline engines and infrequently used automotive four-cycle gasoline engines: drain oil at intervals up to three times longer than those recommended by the engine manufacturer, or one year, whichever comes first.​

​

​

AMSOIL - Series 2000 Synthetic 20W-50 Racing Oil

So, this Amsoil has all the recommended additives, is especially formulated to fight shearing, and consequently has up to 3 times the service interval/life of regular motor oil.​

Now, let's look at viscosities at higher operating temperatures -- which is what I was looking for in order to maintain as much torque to the wheel motors.​

According to the Eaton Char-Lynn guide linked above, these low speed, high torque wheel motors require a minimum of 13cst viscosity (with H series motors requiring a minimum of 20cst viscosity), and the "best range" for all series is specified at 20-43 cst.​

According to the AMSOIL site (linked above), this oil will still maintain 18.3 cst at 212 degrees F (100 degrees C). This is significantly above that minimum viscosity rating, and almost into their "best range" -- at these high operating temps...​

Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 18.3

Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 128.1​

​

Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) 160 ​

Now, let's compare that to AMSOIL's equivalent to UDT, their Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil (ATH), which is the equivalent of SAE 5W30 viscosity. Unless I'm mistaken, this is what Fourteen is using in his PT-425 and is pleased with it...​

AMSOIL Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil (ATH)​

SAE Viscosity 5W-30

Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 9.7​

Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 56.0​

​

Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) 159​

​

​

AMSOIL - Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil, SAE 5W-30

​

As you can see, the 20W50 has almost twice the viscosity of the tractor hydraulic fluid at 212 degrees F (100 degrees C), and the hydraulic fluid actually falls below the minimum requirements specified by Eaton at that high of a temperature...

BTW, 40 degrees Celsius is the eqivalent of 104 degrees Fahrenheit -- certainly below operating temperature of the hydraulic oil. I've only "crudely" tested my oil temps on a couple of occasions, using a cooking thermometer, and the operating temp seems to get into 150-160 degrees F in normal operation. I haven't used my brush-cutter or finish-mower for long periods of time in the hot summer months, so I don't know what the upper range might be...​

Now, let's look at the opposite -- cold weather.​

The pour point for the 5W30 ATH Hydraulic Oil is shown as:​

Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-97) -44 (-47)​

While the pour point for the 20W50 Racing Oil is.​

Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 97) -36 (-33)

As you can see, there's not that big a difference. Since I don't intend to be outside operating the machine in those kinds of temps, I don't see it being a "show-stopper" -- especially since the PT is being used in Tennessee, where it seldom gets REAL cold.​

So, I don't think I'm harming my PT-425 in any way, by using synthetic motor oil instead of hydraulic oil. There is no combustion taking place to put those contaminants in the oil, nor is is operating at the temperature extremes that engine oil is usually faced with. So, I think it will stand up pretty well in that regard. Since PT doesn't even specify a "oil change point" for the entire system that I know of, I think I can safely get 500 hours of life, or more out of it. It has all the recommended additives, and is specifically formulated to fight shearing -- the weaknesses of multigrade lubricants of any type.​

I am getting noticeably more torque than with the 10W40 motor oil that came in it... With over 100 hours on it since the change, I've noticed no "downsides."​

Your mileage may vary -- this is only an owner's opinion and experience, based on his own research, and I'm selling nothing, am not associated with AMSOIL in any way, nor have anything to gain...​

​

 

[KentT]

I apologize for the funky formatting above -- I've tried to edit and correct it, but seem unable to...

BTW, here's a viscosity comparison/conversion chart that shows the correlation of the different viscosity ratings:

Viscosity Charts

 

[Barryh]

Since I'm a bit of a "maverick" and am running Amsoil Series 2000 20W50 Racing Oil to try to get the maximum possible torque out of my old-style PT-425 wheel motors, I thought I'd weigh in...

First of all -- can you safely run motor oil instead of hydraulic oil? Well, according to Eaton's Char-Lynn application guide for Low Speed High Torque Motors:



http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/pdfs/E-MOLO-MC001-E2_Intro.pdf

Given that caution about desired additives, shearing of multi-viscosity oils, and the possibility of increased flluid maintenance being required, let's look at the properties of the Amsoil synthetic engine oil that I used:


[/LEFT]

AMSOIL - Series 2000 Synthetic 20W-50 Racing Oil

So, this Amsoil has all the recommended additives, is especially formulated to fight shearing, and consequently has up to 3 times the service interval/life of regular motor oil.​

Now, let's look at viscosities at higher operating temperatures -- which is what I was looking for in order to maintain as much torque to the wheel motors.​

According to the Eaton Char-Lynn guide linked above, these low speed, high torque wheel motors require a minimum of 13cst viscosity (with H series motors requiring a minimum of 20cst viscosity), and the "best range" for all series is specified at 20-43 cst.​

According to the AMSOIL site (linked above), this oil will still maintain 18.3 cst at 212 degrees F (100 degrees C). This is significantly above that minimum viscosity rating, and almost into their "best range" -- at these high operating temps...​

Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 18.3

Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 128.1​

​

Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) 160 ​

Now, let's compare that to AMSOIL's equivalent to UDT, their Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil (ATH), which is the equivalent of SAE 5W30 viscosity. Unless I'm mistaken, this is what Fourteen is using in his PT-425 and is pleased with it...​

AMSOIL Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil (ATH)​

SAE Viscosity 5W-30

Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 9.7​

Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C, cSt (ASTM D-445) 56.0​

​

Viscosity Index (ASTM D-2270) 159​

​

​

AMSOIL - Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil, SAE 5W-30

​

As you can see, the 20W50 has almost twice the viscosity of the tractor hydraulic fluid at 212 degrees F (100 degrees C), and the hydraulic fluid actually falls below the minimum requirements specified by Eaton at that high of a temperature...

BTW, 40 degrees Celsius is the eqivalent of 104 degrees Fahrenheit -- certainly below operating temperature of the hydraulic oil. I've only "crudely" tested my oil temps on a couple of occasions, using a cooking thermometer, and the operating temp seems to get into 150-160 degrees F in normal operation. I haven't used my brush-cutter or finish-mower for long periods of time in the hot summer months, so I don't know what the upper range might be...​

Now, let's look at the opposite -- cold weather.​

The pour point for the 5W30 ATH Hydraulic Oil is shown as:​

Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D-97) -44 (-47)​

While the pour point for the 20W50 Racing Oil is.​

Pour Point °C (°F) (ASTM D 97) -36 (-33)

As you can see, there's not that big a difference. Since I don't intend to be outside operating the machine in those kinds of temps, I don't see it being a "show-stopper" -- especially since the PT is being used in Tennessee, where it seldom gets REAL cold.​

So, I don't think I'm harming my PT-425 in any way, by using synthetic motor oil instead of hydraulic oil. There is no combustion taking place to put those contaminants in the oil, nor is is operating at the temperature extremes that engine oil is usually faced with. So, I think it will stand up pretty well in that regard. Since PT doesn't even specify a "oil change point" for the entire system that I know of, I think I can safely get 500 hours of life, or more out of it. It has all the recommended additives, and is specifically formulated to fight shearing -- the weaknesses of multigrade lubricants of any type.​

I am getting noticeably more torque than with the 10W40 motor oil that came in it... With over 100 hours on it since the change, I've noticed no "downsides."​

Your mileage may vary -- this is only an owner's opinion and experience, based on his own research, and I'm selling nothing, am not associated with AMSOIL in any way, nor have anything to gain...​

​

Looks like you did your homework, something to think about.

 

[BobRip]

I apologize for the funky formatting above -- I've tried to edit and correct it, but seem unable to...

BTW, here's a viscosity comparison/conversion chart that shows the correlation of the different viscosity ratings:

Viscosity Charts

Well thought out post KentT. I talked to Mobil about using Mobile 1 20W50 and they felt this was a good application. I did not get nearly to the level of detail that you did. It does work a lot better when hot than the original 5W30 that PT put it. Yes that was 5W30 in year 2000.

 

[RegL]

Well thought out post KentT. I talked to Mobil about using Mobile 1 20W50 and they felt this was a good application. I did not get nearly to the level of detail that you did. It does work a lot better when hot than the original 5W30 that PT put it. Yes that was 5W30 in year 2000.

Exmark uses Mobil 1 in their hydro mowers. Similar system, just smaller than a PT's.

 

[KentT]

In researching possible wheel motors to upgrade to, I ran into this interesting sidenote on the Parker performance charts:

"Performance based on testing using 10W40 oil with a viscosity of 200 SUS at 54 degrees C (130 degrees F)."

White's performance charts simply say:

"Tested at 129 degrees F with an oil viscosity of 213 SUS"

Char-Lynn's charts say:

"Performance data is typical at 120 SUS."

Char-Lynn doesn't state the temperature at which testing was done, but does state a recommended system maximum operating temperature of 82 degrees C or 180 degrees F.

Note the higher viscosity of the oil (measured in SUS) used in both Parker and White's tests, in comparison to Char-Lynn...

Seems two of the three manufacturers here may be using motor oil instead of hydraulic oil for their tests. One definitely appears to be, though they don't use the term motor oil. I'm not aware of any 10W40 UDT or hydraulic oil.

 

[FOURTEEN]

Since I'm a bit of a "maverick" and am running Amsoil Series 2000 20W50 Racing Oil to try to get the maximum possible torque out of my old-style PT-425 wheel motors.

Since I don't usually use my PT-425 below 40 degrees outside, store it inside at a minimum of 60 degrees, but need maximum torque, what are your thoughts about using Amsoil Series 2000 SAE 60 Synthetic Racing Oil (AHR) https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ahr.aspx in the hydraulics??

 

[KentT]

Since I don't usually use my PT-425 below 40 degrees outside, store it inside at a minimum of 60 degrees, but need maximum torque, what are your thoughts about using Amsoil Series 2000 SAE 60 Synthetic Racing Oil (AHR) https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/ahr.aspx in the hydraulics??

Fourteen,

Opinion only, but I'd be hesitant -- it may be "too thick" for smooth operation of hydraulic cylinders, etc. That's why I like the multiblend approach, even if it may not be quite as durable as oils that are not.