My letter to Kioti, loader rerepair, long

[Highbeam]

"Highbeam, I doubt you will recover your optimism and I recommend you sell your tractor and buy another brand. Time to jump ship, IMHO."

I can have buyer's remorse and I know hindsight is 20/20 but I haven't gotten to the point of dumping it yet. The best therapy in the world to help me feel good will be spending a 12 hour day mowing my overgrown field while looking over the hood at a nice loader. These things happen, and if I traded for a Kubota something could happen there too.

 

[Highbeam]

"Highbeam, I doubt you will recover your optimism and I recommend you sell your tractor and buy another brand. Time to jump ship, IMHO."

I can have buyer's remorse and I know hindsight is 20/20 but I haven't gotten to the point of dumping it yet. The best therapy in the world to help me feel good will be spending a 12 hour day mowing my overgrown field while looking over the hood at a nice loader. These things happen, and if I traded for a Kubota something could happen there too.

 

[IslandTractor]

gravel,

I think your point is an important one for all to consider. You don't know about cracks unless you remove the cover plate and check. So far only Highbeam has actually noticed cracks extending beyond the cover plate. Clearly there are going to be more cracked loaders identified as people get curious and check (or as loaders without cracks currently are checked again). Bearhawk's thread and complilation were an indication that there are now close to a dozen (OK only 11) documented cracked loaders. 5 CK20s and 6 CK30s. I don't know if Bob S's estimate of 50 CK owners is correct or if even that many have actually checked to see the status of their loader but if his estimate is correct (it is likely within a factor of 2-3 at most) then up to 20% or more of these loaders have cracks. 11 of approximately 50. However, as only a few people who checked but did not find cracks were reported in Bearhawk's thread, the number could be substantially higher. There is clear potential for reporting bias (more likely to post if you have cracks) but that is more than counterbalanced by the presumably large number of owners with at least 50 hours on their machines who have yet to pull off the inspection plate and actively check.

In case folks don't want to go back to the original summary thread by Bearhawk, here is the list of cracked loaders:
Here are the data to date.

Tractor ... date purchased... engine hrs ... inspection findings

CK20 -------- 7/04 ------- 449 ------- cracks in all four corners(1")
CK20HST ---- 2004 ------- 170 ------- Cracks at 4 corner bolt holes varying in size from 2-3 mm's to all the way to the panel opening.
CK20HST ---- 09/05 ------ 85 ------- 1 inch cracks through the bolt holes in all 4 corners.
CK20 -------- 12/05 ------ 100 ------- Small cracks on all four corners.
CK20 -------- 2005 -------- 70 ------- cracks on both sides of bolt holes in all four corners.


CK30HST ----- 3/05 ------- 268 ------ 4 - 1/2" cracks at gussets
CK30HST ----- 04/05 ------ 146 ------ cracks at all four corners where the gusset ends.
Ck30 --------- 7/05 -------- 82 ------ The cracks are in all four corners about 3" long.
CK30HST ----- 9/05 ------- 150 ------ all 4 cracks, 2-3", beginning at edge of gussets.
CK25 -------- 10/05 -------- 43 ------ 4 small cracks starting @ end of gussets
CK30HST ----- 04/05 ------- 65 ------ cracks in all 4 corners.

It seems based on current imperfect data (again assuming a total population of 50CKs represented actively on TBN) that up to 20% or more of these loaders may have cracking. These estimates may conceivably be high (reporting bias) but are actually most likely low (not all 50 users have taken the plate off to check) but in any case it is much better data than Kioti apparently has or is willing to acknowledge even to its dealers.

That is a huge percentage of loaders and Kioti is truly nuts if they don't issue some sort of statement to dealers and owners. I for one can forgive an unanticipated problem that pops up in an otherwise great tractor but I cannot tolerate having the company hide or minimize such a problem. Somebody at Kioti please wake up! The Highbeams of this world are your customers and have the potential to be great ambassadors for your product (look at Highbeams posts prior to Feb 06, you'd think he owned stock in the company or was newly married to the thing he was so happy). If the Highbeams are disgruntled or worse, jumping ship, I'd say there will be rough sailing for Kioti in the future. This country has room for 5 or 6 profitable tractor companies. I doubt seriously the 11th and 12th largest brands are going to be viable. Kioti has made great strides in that market but an episode like this loader cracking issue could spell real trouble that would be very hard to recover from if it is not actively managed. Seems Kioti has a choice: this whole episode is shaping up as a classic business school case study. Kioti gets to decide whether it demonstrates active management of a tough issue (win for the company) or passive ostrich "Pinto" strategy (bye bye Kioti). I'm rooting for openness on Kioti's part and will stick by them as long as that happens. Otherwise, I'll see y'all over on the Mahindra forum (don't smile Wallace).

 

[IslandTractor]

gravel,

I think your point is an important one for all to consider. You don't know about cracks unless you remove the cover plate and check. So far only Highbeam has actually noticed cracks extending beyond the cover plate. Clearly there are going to be more cracked loaders identified as people get curious and check (or as loaders without cracks currently are checked again). Bearhawk's thread and complilation were an indication that there are now close to a dozen (OK only 11) documented cracked loaders. 5 CK20s and 6 CK30s. I don't know if Bob S's estimate of 50 CK owners is correct or if even that many have actually checked to see the status of their loader but if his estimate is correct (it is likely within a factor of 2-3 at most) then up to 20% or more of these loaders have cracks. 11 of approximately 50. However, as only a few people who checked but did not find cracks were reported in Bearhawk's thread, the number could be substantially higher. There is clear potential for reporting bias (more likely to post if you have cracks) but that is more than counterbalanced by the presumably large number of owners with at least 50 hours on their machines who have yet to pull off the inspection plate and actively check.

In case folks don't want to go back to the original summary thread by Bearhawk, here is the list of cracked loaders:
Here are the data to date.

Tractor ... date purchased... engine hrs ... inspection findings

CK20 -------- 7/04 ------- 449 ------- cracks in all four corners(1")
CK20HST ---- 2004 ------- 170 ------- Cracks at 4 corner bolt holes varying in size from 2-3 mm's to all the way to the panel opening.
CK20HST ---- 09/05 ------ 85 ------- 1 inch cracks through the bolt holes in all 4 corners.
CK20 -------- 12/05 ------ 100 ------- Small cracks on all four corners.
CK20 -------- 2005 -------- 70 ------- cracks on both sides of bolt holes in all four corners.


CK30HST ----- 3/05 ------- 268 ------ 4 - 1/2" cracks at gussets
CK30HST ----- 04/05 ------ 146 ------ cracks at all four corners where the gusset ends.
Ck30 --------- 7/05 -------- 82 ------ The cracks are in all four corners about 3" long.
CK30HST ----- 9/05 ------- 150 ------ all 4 cracks, 2-3", beginning at edge of gussets.
CK25 -------- 10/05 -------- 43 ------ 4 small cracks starting @ end of gussets
CK30HST ----- 04/05 ------- 65 ------ cracks in all 4 corners.

It seems based on current imperfect data (again assuming a total population of 50CKs represented actively on TBN) that up to 20% or more of these loaders may have cracking. These estimates may conceivably be high (reporting bias) but are actually most likely low (not all 50 users have taken the plate off to check) but in any case it is much better data than Kioti apparently has or is willing to acknowledge even to its dealers.

That is a huge percentage of loaders and Kioti is truly nuts if they don't issue some sort of statement to dealers and owners. I for one can forgive an unanticipated problem that pops up in an otherwise great tractor but I cannot tolerate having the company hide or minimize such a problem. Somebody at Kioti please wake up! The Highbeams of this world are your customers and have the potential to be great ambassadors for your product (look at Highbeams posts prior to Feb 06, you'd think he owned stock in the company or was newly married to the thing he was so happy). If the Highbeams are disgruntled or worse, jumping ship, I'd say there will be rough sailing for Kioti in the future. This country has room for 5 or 6 profitable tractor companies. I doubt seriously the 11th and 12th largest brands are going to be viable. Kioti has made great strides in that market but an episode like this loader cracking issue could spell real trouble that would be very hard to recover from if it is not actively managed. Seems Kioti has a choice: this whole episode is shaping up as a classic business school case study. Kioti gets to decide whether it demonstrates active management of a tough issue (win for the company) or passive ostrich "Pinto" strategy (bye bye Kioti). I'm rooting for openness on Kioti's part and will stick by them as long as that happens. Otherwise, I'll see y'all over on the Mahindra forum (don't smile Wallace).

 

[gamble77]

Gentlemen I understand the frustration this must bring to some of you as Kioti owners. However, since the time this subject has been brought up to date, in the grand scheme of things, has not been a very long time. Kioti must work with the supplier of the KL120 & 130 loaders to ensure they when they do have a "fix" for these loaders it is a proper fix and a fix that will not have to be re-fixed.

This is obviously a problem and Kioti does know about it. Things in this business do not happen over night. The only option right now is to ship out new loaders...loaders that will not be properly enforced at the problem areas...therefore they are just replacing a faulty loader with one that is prone to failing. At this point they cannot issue a recall because what would they do, just replace all cracked loaders with new frames that are themselves prone to cracking? A true and proper fix is in the works but to engineer a fix, test a fix, and then supply Kioti and its dealers with enough fix kits will take time.

So to all you guys that have cracked loaders I say go use the heck out them and crack them all you want. Those little cracks aren't going to go away and they aren't going to fix themselves, and at the same time they don't affect your ability to use the loader itself. When Kioti has a fix that will ensure you will never have a cracked loader again you will be some of the first to know.

 

[gamble77]

Gentlemen I understand the frustration this must bring to some of you as Kioti owners. However, since the time this subject has been brought up to date, in the grand scheme of things, has not been a very long time. Kioti must work with the supplier of the KL120 & 130 loaders to ensure they when they do have a "fix" for these loaders it is a proper fix and a fix that will not have to be re-fixed.

This is obviously a problem and Kioti does know about it. Things in this business do not happen over night. The only option right now is to ship out new loaders...loaders that will not be properly enforced at the problem areas...therefore they are just replacing a faulty loader with one that is prone to failing. At this point they cannot issue a recall because what would they do, just replace all cracked loaders with new frames that are themselves prone to cracking? A true and proper fix is in the works but to engineer a fix, test a fix, and then supply Kioti and its dealers with enough fix kits will take time.

So to all you guys that have cracked loaders I say go use the heck out them and crack them all you want. Those little cracks aren't going to go away and they aren't going to fix themselves, and at the same time they don't affect your ability to use the loader itself. When Kioti has a fix that will ensure you will never have a cracked loader again you will be some of the first to know.

 

[HODAK]

Or maybe it is not a widespread problem as Kioti seems to indicate via dealers?

Wallace indicates something quite to the contrary. I would say he knows more about what is going on than most. Myself, along with many others, trust his word.

 

[HODAK]

Or maybe it is not a widespread problem as Kioti seems to indicate via dealers?

Wallace indicates something quite to the contrary. I would say he knows more about what is going on than most. Myself, along with many others, trust his word.

 

[Alan L.]

I see nothing wrong with posting it here. This is a tractor board and we should talk about our tractors - good and bad. Maybe we shouldn't trust the glowing reports we get on all the big 3 plus Kioti because it seems it is "uncool" to post anything negative.

I'd say there is already a problem regardless of how Kioti ends up handling the issue. The man is without his tractor and had been told they are going to put his brand new tractor together with bailing wire and duct tape and he is supposed to be happy? Not say anything bad about Kioti until he is done fighting with them? Nonsense.

 

[Alan L.]

I see nothing wrong with posting it here. This is a tractor board and we should talk about our tractors - good and bad. Maybe we shouldn't trust the glowing reports we get on all the big 3 plus Kioti because it seems it is "uncool" to post anything negative.

I'd say there is already a problem regardless of how Kioti ends up handling the issue. The man is without his tractor and had been told they are going to put his brand new tractor together with bailing wire and duct tape and he is supposed to be happy? Not say anything bad about Kioti until he is done fighting with them? Nonsense.