My wife is divorcing me over coyotes

[EddieWalker]

Tom,

I rarely take too much here personally and enjoy hearing new ideas and different opinions.

I agree that the Grizzly is the same as the Brown bear and all it's variations, but there is also a huge difference between the two. The grizzly is found in the mountian regions predominatlye, while the brownies are along the coast and rivers. There huge size difference is due to the brown bears diet of salmon compared to the Grizzly, who lives mostly on plants and berries. The Record books split them into different catagories. There have been more than one hunter who has tried to pass a brown bear off as a grizzly, but DNA testing will tell the difference.

A fun sidenote is that a very large skull was found someplace. Might have been a garage sale. The owner thought it was a new world record since it was so huge. DNA testing, and later University study, proved that it was a California Grizzly. An animal that's been extict for around a century, but known to be much larger than the Brown Bear.

As to the question of poison, it's one of those things that we all have to decide on our own. I have no problem with anybody who doesn't want to poison, trap, shoot or harm wildlife in any form. It's their land and their decision. Some people have land that they refuse to hunt on or kill anything on, no matter what.

I've also never set poison out for coyotes, nor felt the need to do so. If at some point in the future I have a pack of coyotes, dogs or anything else that presents a danger to my family, friends or livestock, then I'll do what I feel is necessary to solve that problem. Poison is on my list of options.

Here in East Texas, we can trap and bait hogs. Other places in the country it's illegal. Some people look down on us because we use this method to control there numbers. Once an animal is caught in a trap, it's killed. No challange, no fair play or anything like that.

It's not about hunting or a challange or anything romantic. It's about getting rid of a problem. To me, it's very simple.

Problem coyotes/dogs are the same as rats, gophers, snakes, spiders, misquitos and wasps, not to mention anything else that affects my life in a negative manner.

Thank you for a good discusion,
Eddie

 

[rox]

Tom,

The coyotes were in a pack 50 to 75 feet from the man and his family. In a previous post he wrote about them being under his bedroom window and I think on his proch. Truth is we humans are at the top of the food chain and we get to decide who is allowed to walk around our property. Living in the country is nice and all that, but the "wild" animals need to stay on their side of the tree line.

I wonder what your reaction would be if a pack of snarling howling coyotes/half breed 'yotes or whatever were 50 to 75 feet from your daughter? You have 1 child, the psoter has 2 children. A parent just can not keep their eyes on 2 kids all the time, every minute The environment must be safe for the children, or else, what move to the country but the kids have to stay in the house all the time becasue it is not safe outside?

The poster has written about this pack before and it does not seem like they are "moving on," more like they are moving in. Being at the top of the food chain gives man the advantage of declaring and defending his homestead property.

The coyotes can have the rest of the woods but a man's home needs to be safe for his children and these 'yotes are not safe to have in the neighborhood, they are not afraid to visit the front porch!

 

[Tom_H]

Eddie,

I am familiar with these "differences", between the bears. There is a lot of disagreement between taxonomists over the issue. One of my degrees is in biology. I and my uncle, a retired biology professor, both feel that the issue comes down minute interpretation.

Rox,

We just have to respectfully agree to disagree. My daughter has ADHD and is one of the most hyperactive kids I've ever seen (and I am a teacher-wife is also). We have never put her on medication and we manage to stay atop her so well that she has never made a grade lower than an A. My daughter takes more energy to manage than five typical children. I teach 34, that's t-h-i-r-t-y f-o-u-r young kids ALL DAY LONG, and am considered an outstanding teacher, so I very much know what it takes to manage more than one child at a time.

I do agree that packs of domestic dog/wild dog hybrids can be dangerous, far moreso than pure-blooded packs of wolves or coyotes. If I lived in an area where there was a pure-blooded pack of coyotes, which later became contaminated with ferel dogs and hybrids, then, yes, I might think about some intervention. Having a gene pool contataminated by genes from domestic animals often makes a species less adept to survining in the wild as it should be and more of a threat to humans than it otherwise would be. I am, therefore, not disagreeing with you on that point. As it is, the pack that lives around me seems to be pure-blooded, shys away from humans at all costs, and controls my rodent pest problem.

All that being said, here is my concern. If humans keep moving away from cities, to rural areas, only to discover that they are too afraid to take it, and decide to kill everything that is a perceived threat, then that area becomes less wild and slowly becomes more of an urban setting. Then those who think the area has become too "civilived" move farther away and the cycle repeats itself. At some point, the rural territory that so many of us cherish, simply vanishes. This has happened in Europe and eastern China. Episode 1 of Star Wars has the characters visit a planet that is one giant city, not a square inch of soil to be found. The thought makes me ill. I live around a lot of "country" folks. I grew up in the country and just wasn't happy living in town. I acknowledge that I burn more gas than I'd like to in my 20 min. commute, and that my choice to live here and work there contributes to pollution more than I'd like. I try to make up a bit by driving a fuel efficient compact. Anyways, more and more of my true "country" neighbors are being displaced by really rich city folks who move here and build multi-million dollar homes and then huge fences to surround their gated communities. Developers will create these "neighborhoods" of about 300 houses. They have 5 acre lots, 5,000+ sq. ft mansions, all in the middle of nowhere, yet still feel the need to surround their "community" with a wall like something in the Middle Ages. They want to be in the country, but are still as afraid of the country as they were the city.

I have to disagree with the conclusions you have drawn about what I would do. I would take my two, three, four children out, regardless of the type pack. I have taken groups of a dozen 12-14 year olds into bear country many times, and have encountered bears, boars, alligators, bobcats, venemous snakes, etc., et al, and have never had a child injured or in peril. I have taught kids to rock climb and have had them on rock faces with hundreds of feet of air below them. They were safe however, because I make sure that when I go into the wilderness, I still practice what I learned in scouts 40 years ago, "Be Prepared." When it comes to surviving in wild places and avoiding danger, I know what I am doing. I make absolutely sure I know what I am doing ahead of time. I have been doing so for over 40 years.

My next door neighbor was a big hunter. When he discovered that I was a backpacker, and had given up my guns and hunting in favor of zero-impact camping, he acted very contemptously towards me. He was a guy who fully acted the macho part. He really considered himself a true man of the woods and to him I was just a "tree hugger." Bill was so cocky about himself and his guns, that when he taught his sons to hunt, he did not teach them anything about respecting the power of a weapon, or about safety protocol. On September 25, 2004, Bill took his youngest son, aged 15, out to hunt with the new rifle he had bought the youngster for his birthday. After a day in the Sierra foothills, the two arrived back at the truck. Bill didn't have the boy check the chamber, didn't instruct him that the muzzle is always pointed away from others whether loaded or unloaded. With safety off, finger inside the trigger guard, the boy placed the rifle in the gun rack as his father stood in the open driver's door of the big pickup. It wasn't the boy's fault. It was the fault of an arrogant father, but it is the boy who will have to live with the incident for the rest of his life. Am I trying to drive home a point that guns should all be outlawed? No, I'm not. I am trying to make the point that anything with power needs to be paid its due respect, whether that thing is a grizzly, an L series Kubota, or a gun. I disagree with my liberal friends who believe that guns should simply be eradicated. Guns should be all but impossible for crooks with a record to get their hands on and people who own guns should treat them as the deadly weapons they are. Likewise, I disagree with my conservative friends who think any perceived wild threat should be eradicated. In the same manner, wild animals should be treated with extreme respect, but just like guns, they don't need to be eliminated. Some people don't need to have their hands on guns because they don't know what they're doing. Some people don't need to live in rural or sem-wilderness areas because they don't know what they're doing. If somebody can't respect a gun's power, he shouldn't have one. Learning to respect the weapon and religiously follow protocol makes a difference. If somebody wants to move to a wild place but doesn't have the skill to live in harmony with the wild creatures that God himself put there, then that person might give thought to moving back to the city instead of destroying the beautiful creation that almighty God himself created. What my new neighbors in the outback gated communities actually are after, I really don't know; I don't think they know either. When I am in the woods, or even the field, I always follow the protocols that I learned decades ago in scouts. By following these protocols, I have never had any of the participants I guided sustain harm by an animal or a serious injury of any kind while in the wilderness. Of the dozens of other guides who worked for the same outfitter, none of them had serious incidents either. The only serious accident, a fatality, was when one group was in transport by car to the trailhead and was broadsided by a drunk driver who ran a red light. Far more people are injured or killed in the wilderness by improper use of the guns they take for protection, not by the animals who live there.

I know many of you will disagree with me. That's o.k. I am comfortable with my opinions, and yes they are opinions. I cannot say that my beliefs are ultimate truth. I know full well that my opinions will be in the minority in this forum, but I am not attempting to stir up any flaming or anger among the members. I offer these opinions with respect, knowing that the majority will disagree. Hopefully, our words here will offer at least a little food for thought as to WHY those who disagree with each other think the way they do. I've learned tremendous amounts of information on TBN, and hope I will continue doing so. Best wishes all.

 

[EddieWalker]

Tom,

Thanks for the well thought out post. It's a pleasure to read other peoples views when they differ from my own, but can say so clearly with support for their argument.

I was in Jackson two weeks ago visiting my parents. Are you close to that area? It's been a few years since I'd been in that area, and the amount of growth is truly mind boggleing!!! I can see where you'd think along the lines of non stop development that eventually covers up everything. I haven't felt so closed in, in a very long time.

Eddie

 

[Tom_H]

Eddie,

I'm 30 mi. west of Jackson in Wilton. Elk Grove is growing toward us so fast that we could be consumed by it in a decade. Sheldon used to be all 2 acre or 5 acre parcels. Developers grabbed up all the ranches in Sheldon and got the county to rezone it to 7 houses per acre. Now 2 to 5 acre parcels are all interspersed with suburban neighborhoods. In lots of places, a 5 acre lot with house and horses will be completely surrounded by a 'burb. The county commissioners and city planners take campaign contributions from the developers and then give them whatever they want. Grantline Road (was the edge of John Sutter's land grant) is 2 lanes and used to have 1 stop sign. The county is about to 6 lane it as a connector between CA99 and US50. Rural people in Sheldon are all up in a riot, and hundreds of them show up at city council and county commission meetings to protest, but it seems to have little effect. All the city, come to country people want local crop dusting stopped and burn days ended. The Cosumnes is the only river flowing west out of the Sierra that's undammed. Ranchers and vintners have problems with levee breaches from floods about every 10 years, so now developers are trying to get a dam on the river, not really to protect ranchers as they claim, but in a bid to grab more land in what's a flood zone and develop it. Lent Ranch, just west of the junction of Grantline at 99, is about to become a 2.1 million sq. ft. mall surrounded by farmland. Of course, the remainder won't stay farmland for long. It's really a circus of lifestyle clashes. A fourth house was built a couple of years ago on my unnamed rulal dirt lane. Being the fourth person triggered a county code the guy didn't know about. He had to pay to pave the road! The guy across from him, who had lived there forever and had been the first on the road was so upset at now living on a paved road that he sold out (got nearly a million for his 800 sq. ft. modular home and 5 acres) and moved to backwoods Montana.

Me? I just want my quiet country life, coyotes and all.

 

[JimR]

In 1998 a child was attacked in Sandwich, Ma. on Cape Cod in her backyard. This was the first reported attack by a coyote in our state. Since then there have been a lot of stories come out about other coyote attacks.
http://www.massaudubon.org/printwildlife.php?id=23

 

[GaryCrowell]

Just a few points to make.

Coyotes aren't as dangerous as many think. I know they scared you and your family pretty badly, but they're mostly harmless. They are not COMPLETELY harmless, however. They occasionally will take a small dog or small child, so some concern is warranted.

You're not going to make a dent in their population whatsoever by hunting. You can sit out their all night long with infared spotlights and you might get one or two. You will never kill enough to make any difference at all, it just isn't going to happen. Snares won't help any either, it's the same thing, you might get one or two, it won't make any difference. Coyotes are adaptive breeders, if their numbers fall the females go into heat. I once read that if you kill 60% of the coyote population they will re-populate to their previous levels within 10 weeks.

The only thing that will work to control coyote numbers in a local area is poison. If you have ethical qualms about using it then you'll have to learn to live with the coyotes. There's a cotton pesticide called Timik that will make short work of them if you mix it with some meat scraps and toss it out at strategic locations. Don't get any on your hands when mixing it, and don't let anyone know you're doing it, it's not exactly legal, but it will work. Of course, I didn't tell you that.

The only other I can think of that you could use is an electric fence. A wire ran about six inches off of the ground will keep them out of an area. Coyotes love watermelons, we used to have a heck of a time keeping them out of our watermelon patch until I ran an electric fence around it. It kept them out.

 

[Bird]

Keeping coyotes out of the watermelons? Reminds me of when I was a kid living in Marlow, OK, which is just south of Rush Springs, which is one of 3 cities I know of that claim to be the watermelon capital of the world. And the local newspaper ran an article telling people to not steal watermelons from the fields, but if you do, be sure you pull it off the vine because they said some farmers pulled melons off the vines, injected them with poison, and left them for the coyotes.

 

[greatrandini]

Just wondering? Laminaran (sp) started this thread. Said he was off to get supplies and we have not heard a thing since. I hope he is not off on a quest to rid his part of the world of coyotes?

 

[jim_wilson]

Tom,
I really like your posts and your well thought out defense of your point of view. Although I live in a typical suburb I agree with a lot of what you said. Just about everybody I know is like you have described - afraid of the wilderness. I have been doing lots of construction work on my lot since we moved in a few years back. We have gone thru a few periods where the lawn does not get mowed and weeds get pretty high. Because of this we have gotten quite a few rabbits coming thru the yard, an occasional wild turkey, and a couple of years ago what was either a fox or a very mangy coyote. In general I am not afraid of wildlife - like you have said if you leave them alone they will leave you alone. Rabbits are pretty skittish but I have been able to get very close to the turkeys and the fox/coyote to take pictures without them running away. I then carefully just let the alone. I think a lot of the problems people have with wildlife are due to that person's general ignorance of the reality of interpersonal relations - I have observed that the same people I see having problems in their human to human relations also have lots of problems in their relations to animals. I also agree with you on your observations of people who move to the country and then try to turn it into the city. I see the same thing happening in the suburbs - used to be many intersections did not have stop signs, many streets did not have lights, etc. Now every darn intersection has to have a stop sign - and everybody wants the whole darn world all lit up all night. I can't stand the people who put these big floodlights on the property and then leave them on all night. I like the darkness.