My wife's chickens are official taxpayers

[dcyrilc]

Some balance is required. I should have reasonable use of my property and it is wrong to require me to leave vacant a part of my property in order to fulfill some other group's desire for open space (without compensation) But should I be allowed to run a junk yard on my 1/2 acre neighborhood lot?
Mike

Now we're talking about zoning. Again a good thing, but limits need to be observed. The 'balance' you spoke about.

I'm sure zoning plays a part into what I dealt with as 15+ years ago, we were changed from farm/ag to residentual zoning. As we are now surrounded by residentual, I'm sure the county would love to be able to make us close the farm. It doesn't meet their long term objectives for this area and with the current public push for open spaces, I can understand it. Still doesn't make it right. The thing I find funny about it, is that the county publically (on TV) talks a lot about how it is fighting to support and protect it's small farms, but then does this kind of thing.

There's more to this story, but this isn't the place to go into it out of respect for the OP and not wanting to take over his thread.


I guess my take on this, is that most government agencies seem to try to care for the health of the large forest, but fail to care for the health of the indivual trees that make up the forest.


I find a similar analogy with some equipment I'm installing at work. It left me laughing while I banged my head on the wall out of frustration. We're instaling some wireless roadway sensors for vehicle detection at an intersection downtown. The instructions tell how to lay out the sensors for different types of detection zones and that you can use up to 15 sensors/channel. They tell that you can assign various configurations to make up the zones for each channel, but they never actually tell how to program the equipment to assign the sensors to the channels.
The system is comprised of three types of equipment. The sensors which go into the roadway, a wireless access point, and detection cards which provide power to the AP via POE (power over ethernet). They go into great detail on how the equipment works and how they inter-relate, but fail to give even a single sentence on how to program it to accomplish the task.:laughing: They tell how to program the sensors, but fail to tell how to initially find and access the sensors with the access point. Took me a full day to accomplish that. They tell how to program the detection cards, but not how to assign sensors to the cards. Our system is using two cards linked together. After two days I finally have things talking, but both cards are acting as one and reading the same sensors. When programming, I can only find one card. I have a feeling it is an addressing issue with the cards so Monday's project is to try to figure out how you set the address on the cards. Again, no mention of addressing in the instructions.:confused2:

 

[johnrex62]

In Maryland, each local jurisdiction must annually set their tax rate at one of three levels:

Constant Rate: Property tax rate (millage) remains the same, often yielding higher total revenue due to increased appraised values

Constant Yield: Property tax rate changes (often lowers) as appropriate to garner the same total revenue as year prior

Something else: Often somewhere between constant rate and constant yield to garner the revenue needed to fund the budget.

Unfortunately, it is rare that the constant yield tax rate is used.

Mike

In many local jurisdictions in Texas, the taxing authority is permitted to adjust the rate as necessary along with the valuations, but must get permission from a state authority or voter approval before raising the rate above an established limit. This theoretically means they CAN lower the rate if valuations increase too much, but in practice they seldom do.

I can recall a conversation my dad had with the phone company back in the 70s regarding a $1.00 tax on his phone bill. It was labled "Allowed Tariff" on the statement, but had no other description. He called and asked about it and was told the State Regulatory board had approved the collection of the new fee, so they were collecting it. When he pressed them on why they were collecting it, the rep replied "Because we were told we could".

The bottom line is if they can get it from you, they will.

 

[Loren49]

johnrex62 - In NYS this year's assessed values were set as of April 2010 - using this value (for my Township about $260,000,000 of which $224,000,000 is a wind farm on a PILOT (payment in lieu of taxes) so we actually use $36,000,000 when we set the tax rate) The Township is currently finalizing its budget, the school budget was set in May and the county is currently doing theirs. Each of these taxing jurisdictions uses the April 2010 assessed value to set its tax rate. The chicken coop or a $2,000,000 mansion that is included in the April 2010 valuation will decrease the tax rate - its omission would increase the tax rate. The amount each taxing jurisdiction remains at the level of the budget.

Do you have first hand experience that a greater assessed value will result in a budget surplus? Its hard to believe that assessed value is adjusted after the tax rate is set - seems like a real problem. I have been on two different town boards and involved with school and county politics enough to know that it doesn't happen that way in NYS.

Sales tax and personal property tax receipts are a different story. That can clearly result in a surplus.

Loren

 

[Mike Costello]

Hey, can the chickens now vote? Who did they vote for?

I'm not exactly sure who they voted for, but I heard rumblings and squawking about the Tea Party because they support less govt. intrusion. The "chicken in every pot" platform was voted down rather quickly!


A politician is the only entity I know who will offer you a "chicken in every pot", while reaching into your pockets to pay for it.

 

[johnrex62]

Do you have first hand experience that a greater assessed value will result in a budget surplus? Its hard to believe that assessed value is adjusted after the tax rate is set - seems like a real problem. I have been on two different town boards and involved with school and county politics enough to know that it doesn't happen that way in NYS.

Sales tax and personal property tax receipts are a different story. That can clearly result in a surplus.

Loren

Yes, 48 years of personal experience. I have seen a tax rate decrease exactly one time in my lifetime and that was when the school board was under fire after decades of surpluses. Unfortunately, they found a way to spend more money and the rate was raised again 8 years later. Since that time, the "Robin Hood Act" was passed and school districts collecting above a certain level must redistribute their funds to poorer schools, so their tax collection becomes less effective at some stage and rate reductions hurt even more.

Sales taxes have no valuation base to counter their rate and are not relevant to your argument about balancing a budget. They are typically set by voter accession to official requests and tend to be adjusted only when economic forecasts predict a shortfall in collections. I have never seen a sales tax rate be reduced anywhere I have lived.

There is little to no personal property taxation in Texas. Vehicles and Motorhomes are the only items that come to mind that are truly taxed personal property and vehicles are not taxed based on value but rather on size classification. Motorhomes or Mobile homes I believe do have a value component in their taxation, but I have never investigated that aspect personally.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Loren, not picking on you, but I don't buy the argument. The cost of running the county didn't go up just because someone built a small chicken house without a permit. Likewise, If someone doesn't get a permit to install an outlet in their basement, it isn't making the neighbor pay any more in taxes. Property taxes are based on assessed value, and there is no fairness at all in that process. You can have two houses with the same number of rooms, same number of electrical fixtures, same acres, same square footage, etc.etc.etc., and one may be assessed twice the other, just because of what other houses around it are selling for. The same house in two different area's should be taxed the same based on the size, what it contains, etc. but it just doesn't work that way. Permit process are for "little brother", i.e. local taxing authority to watch you. How do you think the person in the same county, therefore paying for the same "government services", feels who pays twice as much in taxes just because they live in a different neighborhood with the same house.
Unfortunately government has always taken the easy way out and "penalized" the innocent to try to stop the guilty, but it never works. Look at the emissions testing programs that costs billions of dollars to run when something like 99.99% of the vehicles pass, so you pay billions to catch a few.... If you still see stoves wired directly without breakers, mismatched wires, etc... then that just proves that a permit process is not going to stop people from doing stupid stuff, meanwhile all the people that know how to do it properly are still required to go thru expensive nonsense to be "legal". It ain't rocket science to wire an outlet, and a homeowner should be allowed to do basic simple wiring without having to take a code test and pay outlandish fees to the county.
Local government's purpose is to provide for basic affairs that concern the collection of local people, like protection and transportation. I don't mind paying taxes for essential services like police, fire protection, roads, but local govt, like state and federal are bloated with functions they have no business performing, and the taxation method, as already stated, is not fair at all. It might cost X to run the county, when it should cost X/2. Renters receive the same fire and police and transportation benefits as I do, yet they pay no property taxes which fund these things. I guess when it snows, renters should be required to stay home, because they don't pay for snow removal at all, since they pay no property tax.
I hope the OP's chickens get some extra benefits from the county, since their home is now taxed.

 

[Loren49]

I didn't say the cost went up because of the chicken coop. I'm not arguing that the burden on property owners is unjust. I did not state that I felt it is fair. I feel that we put too much of the tax burden on property owners. I also feel that there are problems with the number of permits required and that there are often hidden reasons behind permits. It is easy to talk about overall bloat of government and I again agree 100%. The challenge is in the specifics -find a problem and work to change it - that's the tough part. I have a dislike for zoning laws but feel it is a necessary evil to a point. I'm afraid we do need some rules because of the failure of us to think about our neighbors at times.

My statement is that the assessment is done and then budgets are set for each taxing jurisdiction. An increase in the assessed value does not result in a budget surplus. In each of these budgets many of the costs are fixed or close to that. Beyond that there are debates and battles to decide what stays and what goes. We had a public hearing and no one came. My town's tax rate has stayed flat or gone down in each of the past 5 years. Our local school district had a tax rate of $14.20 per $1000 in 2004 and this year it was $8.60 per $1000. We have a major wind farm and much of it is in that district. In contradiction to the claim of many - taxes can go down. Yet I'll guarantee that there are many residents who would say with confidence that there taxes keep going up. A new member to our board complained that we keep raising taxes and we informed him that they actually went down.

In the school example above - residents don't see that much reduction in dollars paid as there true value increased over the six years but most pay less now than then.

I feel that a personal property tax would help to take some of the burden off land owners. Example: $200,000 summer cottage would pay taxes of $2000 to $3000 per year......a $200,000 yacht or motor home would pay nothing in NYS. (I own a boat ($25000 value) not a cottage) I lived in a state years ago with a personal property tax and much lower property taxes.

I just built an 11 x 12 timber frame barn - no permit required (under 144 sq ft zoning law) - I haven't asked the assessor to come look at it.....

Loren

 

[Ductape]

Loren, I have never lived in NY, but I have lived in 5 other states and know a number of people in other taxing jurisdiction with whom I have discussed taxation issues. In every taxing jurisdiction I have had the dubious pleasure of becoming knowledgeable, your scenario would result in a budget surplus, NOT a tax rate reduction.

I've got to agree, and the budget surplus is promptly SPENT. Not trying to pick on Loren, but a municipality finding something to charge my neighbor for, that wasn't paid for last year, will NEVER equate to a tax reduction for me. The reality of it is very different...... its simply a money grab to enable the municipality to have more money to spend. I guess Loren and I will have to agree to disagree.

 

[rocknrod]

I've got to agree, and the budget surplus is promptly SPENT. Not trying to pick on Loren, but a municipality finding something to charge my neighbor for, that wasn't paid for last year, will NEVER equate to a tax reduction for me. The reality of it is very different...... its simply a money grab to enable the municipality to have more money to spend. I guess Loren and I will have to agree to disagree.

:thumbsup:I agree with this :thumbsup:

 

[300UGUY]

We had a tax change in Michigan in 1994. Initially, most property taxes went down a little. But the provision that taxes could only go up 5% per year or the rate of inflation, whichever is less, has had some interesting effects. Long term residents, from 1994 and before, have seen their taxes go up slowly. But if the property is sold, the tax base is reset. So 2 homeowners, identical homes, can pay radically different taxes. It also is starting to keep people from moving. Why trade houses if it can cost you $200 month in taxes?