National I.D. Card

Harv · Sep 24, 2001

I disagree, I am a law abiding citizen and I don't want anyone looking over my shoulder for any reason

ejb -

I understand and respect your feelings on this issue. The fact that I don't share the exact same feelings doesn't lessen the truth of what you say about the privacy issue.

In an ideal society things would be a lot different, but I think we agree that things are far from ideal these days. I'm not advocating Big Brother, nor am I looking forward to having a chip implanted in my head by the government.

Some folks are looking for solutions, and the high-tech I.D. card is on the table at the moment. What other suggestions can you think of to improve our chances against crime (local, organized, terrorist) in general?

I'm more open-minded about this than I probably sound. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

ejb · Sep 24, 2001

>Some folks are looking for solutions, and the high-tech I.D. card is on the table at the moment. What other suggestions can you think of to improve our chances against crime (local, organized, terrorist) in general?

But no one has explained at all how a national ID card is going to prevent any future attacks...are there any countries using them already? Have they eliminated terrorist attacks?

jdkid · Sep 24, 2001

Hi ya
well i think the "eye's" have it no need to carry a card in fact ya could get rid of some cards drivers lic,SSN even used to clear ya visa etc etc also could be used for gun control ie when ya buy one it add to data base of guns owned even to board a plane,train etc if ya on the wanted list ya would show up fast .card up dated when arriveing in other country ie files can be pulled from other countrys showing fines, warnets(?) joe av would have nothing to fear but crims could not hide only down side is it is on file and if someone hacked in, ya would still be you but ya could be wanted in canada for murder even tho ya never left Tx
if any thing is a add on card ,mrico chip it can be copyed the only way of changing eyes is eye transplant
catch ya
JD Kid

Harv · Sep 24, 2001

no one has explained at all how a national ID card is going to prevent any future attacks

Like I said in an earlier post, I don't think anyone is claiming these cards will actually prevent future terrorist attacks. It's just a tool to help monitor the travels and, to some extent, the activities of suspicious individuals. For example, if the card was required in order to board a plane, it would be much more difficult for a known suspect to slip through. If a group of such persons tried to board the same plane at the same time, as they did on Sept.11th, red flags would go up all over the place.

Obviously, this requires that our "intelligence" includes a pretty good list of possible terrorists, which is a whole 'nuther ballgame. Even if an individual has a clean record, you can bet your britches that the feds will be tracking anybody who has even had contact or is in any way associated with known terrorist groups. As I see it, this is the most critical, and the most difficult part of the puzzle.

are there any countries using them already?

This is brand new technology and has never been used before. The key feature of this system is the database of thumbprints that both you and your card must match. You can take your best shot at counterfeiting the card itself, but until you can change your thumbprint, you haven't defeated the system.

I know we're just having a friendly, albeit serious discussion here (aren't we?), but I just saw some survey results on local TV:

60% in favor of the card
28% opposed
12% not sure

Of course, that was the S.F. Bay Area, which obviously doesn't represent the whole country. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

ejb · Sep 24, 2001

Lets just keep in mind, this is the same government that can't even manage to process tax returns properly every year...their is something like 100Million individual tax returns field every year, and it is a well known fact that the computers are so obsolete and poorly maintained that stories about dead people getting refunds, people getting million dollar refunds when in fact they are due none, we have literally thousands of federal retirees collecting a monthly paycheck from the same federal government that syas that those people owe them taxes (and they can't seem to find them)..need I go on?

OK, now if we assume that instead of 100Million filers now we have something like 280Million individuals (and more born everyday) and instead of 100M forms filed once per year, we have 280M people moving about the country and creating "events" (i.e. getting on a plane, opening a bank account, getting money, renting a car, buying a gun etc) do you really think the government would be capable of creating a system where that many people, and that many "events" could be logged accurately such that the information would actually be useful...guess again. There is no way.

Even in my small state of massachusetts, it was reported not that long ago that despite having the toughest gun laws in the country, when the local police chiefs sent the forms into the central database, the state employees were simply sticking them in boxes and filing them into a warehouse...another example of a law passed that made the sheeple feel better about security (i.e. permit required) but had absolutely no effect on anything except another example of government waste and ineffeciency.

How about the $800Million dollars of tax returns that were filed in the PA IRS office this past year...what did the employees do when they couldn't keep up with the paper work? Simple, they simply THREW AWAY THE TAX RETURNS. Yes, thats right.

And this is the government you want to implement leading edge technology that will track the every movement of 280Million citizens (of which about 277Million have never committed a crime)?

How about we enforce the laws that we already have before we start giving up more of our rights to another "feel good" initiative.

Harv · Sep 24, 2001

Well, ejb, I think we've about talked this one to death, and we just have different views on the whole thing. My pleas for better suggestions have gone unanswered, and since participation in this thread has dwindled to just you and me, I'm gonna leave well enough alone.

I know we all want the best for our country, but ideas and opinions will continue to flow. That's pretty much what we're made of, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

LazyK · Sep 24, 2001

Oh, Boy! A National I.D. Card...just when I drew a breath of fresh air with the failure of Missus Slick Willy Rodhammer Clinton's 'National Health CARE ID card!' What's a passport for? It's an in-place system and method for Id'ing Americans. Hell, it's big enough to stow more stuff than any nosey government could ask for. Here's a possible angle...how about charging the IRS with responsibility for bankrupting terrorist organizations through harassment, illegal search and seizure, and all other sanctions already being applied to American Citizens. Team the IRS with the ACLU as oversight authority and you'll have terrorists wondering what the hell hit 'em.
There's nothing to take lightly in all this...I just refuse to go easily into the process of forced loss of precious privacy. I love that which is America, more correctly, the United States of America. I wish I had the same feeling toward those who govern us. The Government has not always done the will of the PEOPLE when carrying out actions with foreign nations and people. They have done things, in Our name, that were totally contrary to what I beleive is the American Way. God, OF ALL RELIGIONS, Bless and Protect the United States and show our Government the WAY. Please ease the terrible pain of those who are victims of other men's sinful acts.

Lazy K - Chip

ERNIEB · Sep 24, 2001

what is a better solution?
I think the best solution is the creation of the office of home security. Provided it works the way it should. In the case of the WTC, all the different agencies had some information on the individuals, but no one put it all together. Hopefully this new thing Bush is setting up will do that.
I suppose that resident aliens, work or student visas would be required to have one of these cards. Oherwise it wouldn't solve anything. Whatever agency issues the card would have to have some way of running checks thru the other agencies. Agencies that are notorious for not cooperating with each other.

Ernie

Youare · Sep 25, 2001

As much as I don't agree with national identification and will drag my feet to the bitter end, this is only a shadow of what is to come. The day is coming when technology will be forced on everyone to replace currency. A cashless society. They are all ready injecting rice size devices in animals for idnetification and tracking purposes, use in humans is not far off.

The national ID is just to get you comfortable with the whole identification process. Soon you will not be able to buy or sell anything without to proper identification, especially when the world goes cashless.

Bird · Sep 25, 2001

best solution is the creation of the office of home security

I hope you're right. I can't help but wonder if it won't just be another expensive beauracracy like our drug czar.

Bird