Need help understanding PTO shaft designs

[erkme73]

I purchased my first tractor less than two weeks ago. It came with about 9 different implements - most of which were in pretty bad shape - rusty, bent, neglected. This is the first time I've ever touched a PTO shaft.

The bushhog and power auger both use the same type of telescoping shaft. The smaller/inner shaft (approx 1.4" diameter) is connected to the gearbox/clutch plate of the implement. The larger/outer shaft (approx 1.7" diameter) is attached to the PTO QD fitting. Both work ok, and I have no problem working either implement.

The tiller, however, is different. The shaft coming off of the gearbox is the larger (1.7") diameter - and it did not come with the second half of the shaft. Further, the shaft appears to have been cut short - it is shorter than either of the other PTO shafts.

Since I'm so green on this stuff, I have no idea what these parts are called, or how to compare them. So, I humbly ask the following:

1) Are all PTO shafts telescopic?
2) What do you call the inner/outer parts, and can they be purchased separately?
3) In the case of the shorter, larger diameter shaft on the tiller, is there a way to determine if the other half should slip inside (or over) the existing part?

It's a bit overwhelming when I'm so illiterate, that I don't even know what the parts are called...

 

[jaxs]

#1. Yes
#2. Male & female Yes
#3. You have the female half
You didn't ask but pto shafts are d-a-n-g-e-r-o-u-s while rotating, even while coasting down after being disengaged. The rotory mower is double trouble because the shaft continoues turning long enough for operator to get off,walk around and come in contact with rotating shaft or a by-stander approaching tractor to say hi after tractor engine has been turned off. The digger is bad news when someone decide's to add their weight to digger so it digs in better. DON"T DO IT!
Stay completely away from pto as long as it is moveing the slightest amount. The main concurn is snagging clothing and wrapping you around the shaft. Did I mention that a pto shaft can and will cripple or kill you in an instant?

 

[erkme73]

Thanks Jaxs...

Not to pile on, but since you're the only one to reply so far... do some implements have the female at the tractor end, while others have males? It just seemed odd to me that two are female on the tractor end, and one is reversed.

 

[Redlands Okie]

I suspect the tiller is just made different and you will have to buy the missing part or more likely a whole pto shaft to replace the half you have.

See if you can find a brand name on that tiller and or model. Some in the forum might be able to use that info to help you. Any measurements on it ? Is it 4 ft wide or 5 ft ? Any idea how old it is or even a rough guess. Etc etc. info is handy to present.

I seem to see county line on the side of it. You might google and check out pictures etc of their products.

Are all the implements 3 point hook up or does any of them have quick disconnect? That affects shaft lengths.

Tiller shaft might be shorter due to the way it hooks up to the tractor. Mine is.

They need to be really really clean and lightly lubed.

Find a plastic cover , sleeve, tube, to put on your pto shaft sticking out of the rear of your tractor to help keep it clean.

All of the pto shafts should have a telescoping plastic cover on them ! Easy to order or find at many tractor farm supply stores. You will need at least shaft diameter when looking. Usually have to cut BOTH half’s of the plastic covers to correct length after buying.

The slip clutches on any attachments most likely need loosened up and make sure they slip. Then torque them back to correct tightness. Rain and Dew and time cause them to stick. Check what ever brand info on each attachment for info on correct numbers to tighten them back to. Other wise you are very likely to ruin the gears inside the tractor pto assemble. Much money involved.

And the warning on dangers of getting caught in them cannot be overstated !!! Do not even leave the tractor running while your trying to hook up.

 

[jaxs]

I usually find female on tractor but that isn't eteched in stone. It's pretty easy to switch ends on some,difficult on others and near impossible on some. Two very pratical reasons to have female at tractor are #1. While shaft is being collapsed for storage,you will get grease on your hand and pinch your hand if holding the male part. #2. While emplement isn't on tractor and sit's outdoors,raiseing the female tractor end prevents rainwater running between shafts and rusting them togeather. BTW,keep male well greased to prevent rusting.

 

[Fallon]

Thanks Jaxs...

Not to pile on, but since you're the only one to reply so far... do some implements have the female at the tractor end, while others have males? It just seemed odd to me that two are female on the tractor end, and one is reversed.

It really doesn't matter which is male & which is female. The fact that 1 in 3 of yours is different is just how they were built it attached randomly. In thoery female on the tractor end means water & grime wouldn't get into the joint as easily. But not by much & it should be covered by a plastic guard anyway.

As previously mentioned, PTOs are DANGEROUS. Probably the most dangerous part of the tractor. Respect them accordingly & never get close to a moving one. Smart people don't even connect them when the tractor is running, just in case something gets bumped. I'm smart... Sometimes.

 

[erkme73]

It's definitely County Line. Though, the manufacturer decal on it is something else:



"Tarter Rotary Tiller Yellow 5 Foot"

As to the safety aspects, I cannot tell you how badly neglected these things are. None of the PTO shafts had a completely functional cover. In fact, the shroud that I see around everyone's PTO hookup is missing on my tractor (which is not even 2 years old).

On the power auger (also a County Line), the metal bracket that goes around both sides of the gearbox (input and output) are missing or so mangled they're bent away from the moving parts.

I'm really wondering if it's worth trying to rehabilitate this stuff, vs going with new implements.

 

[erkme73]

I just spent some time reading the manual for the Tarter 5' tiller. It's the brand that TSC sells, and apparently also goes by the King Kutter name. The manual very clearly shows what you described... the female (outer) shaft connects to the tractor. I looked up some YT videos on the same tiller, and all of them (including ones on how to shorten the shaft) show the same thing.

So I don't quite understand how this tiller has the outer shaft on the tiller. For about $150, I can get a complete replacement shaft (with new slip clutch and full covers). I'm gonna play with it some more tomorrow to make sure I'm just not going crazy... and failing that, I'll order the new shaft.

The tiller lists for $1500 new - so putting 10% into it to get it going (assuming nothing else is broken), doesn't seem unreasonable.

 

[Redlands Okie]

If the u joints are the same size on both ends then someone may have installed it as is. And not thought anything about it. As others have said female on the tractor side is nice.

 

[fatjay]

So I don't quite understand how this tiller has the outer shaft on the tiller. For about $150, I can get a complete replacement shaft (with new slip clutch and full covers).

Make sure that's not just a regular PTO shaft. Your tiller goes into a gear box, not a splined shaft, so you would need to take apart the universal joint on the tiller side.

 

[jaxs]

Make sure that's not just a regular PTO shaft. Your tiller goes into a gear box, not a splined shaft, so you would need to take apart the universal joint on the tiller side.

That's correct. I doubt you will find a shaft including clutch for $150. There are sources for 1/2 shafts. You could also shorten a regular male shaft if that's all you can find.

 

[bspeedy]

I'm really wondering if it's worth trying to rehabilitate this stuff, vs going with new implements.

From the pics you've posted, I would try to get them working. The tiller doesn't look like it has many hours on it. Many people treat implements very poorly. Fail to lube, store outside, etc. I see them as a major investment and treat them accordingly. Most of them can be brought back from the brink to be usable tools.

 

[Xfaxman]

---------------------------------------------

Since I'm so green on this stuff, I have no idea what these parts are called, or how to compare them. So, I humbly ask the following:

-----------------------
3) In the case of the shorter, larger diameter shaft on the tiller, is there a way to determine if the other half should slip inside (or over) the existing part?

It's a bit overwhelming when I'm so illiterate, that I don't even know what the parts are called...

Since the paint is worn off of the shaft, I think it is the male half. Not sure how the safety label survived, the female half must have been cut off real short.

Go look at a new tiller and measure the male shaft diameter.

 

[Fallon]

King Kutter is the OEM for some of the TSC County Line impliments. Tarter gate makes some other stuff. Varies between year & what side of the country you are on. Both are decent economy manufacturers, good bang for the buck but not high end.

PTO shafts are comodity items. On my 3pt trencher it was cheaper to get a whole new shaft than just getting 2 longer tubes.

 

[Gregster613]

Hi erkme73,
I have that exact tiller. I bought it from TSC approx 5 years ago and it's been a good tiller thus far. I changed my brackets around some so it would better fit my quick hitch. I had a fitment issue and thought I had cut my PTO shaft to short. I looked in the manual, called the company, and they sold me a complete new shaft with slip-clutch for about $180.00.
Yours is on backwards and you can easily buy a replacement. Just bolt on and go to work. If you want to save money you can listen to all the great advice you receive here and search for a replacement end. It does get confusing in the individual piece department tho. and you still have to reverse the slip-clutch section. Up to you.

My original tiller teeth worn out rapidly though. They seemed soft. I replaced all 42 with some made of Boron steel. Will see how that improves lifespan. I have "very" hard clay soil and never get enough rain to till properly; it is what it is. I've had good luck with my medium level tiller and hope you will to.
Greg

I looked again at the picture just above my post. It looks as if that may indeed be the female end and not actually installed backwards. If so you just need to go to TSC and match up with the male section. At any rate, just go to TSC and look at their tillers on display and you'll soon see whatever part you need. Maybe they have the end section you need on their shelf and it'll be much cheaper than a new shaft. Good luck.

 

[erkme73]

Thanks for all the support and recommendations, everyone. I ended up buying the shaft $117 + shipping (around $150) from a seller on eBay. I sent him the manual for the tiller, and he responded with the link to the shaft - which he said was specific to that tiller - and included the slip-clutch. Here's the link to the shaft.

I was originally going for his listing that was listed for the King Kutter tiller. He said that one would need to be cut to fit, where the one above (which he recommended) should fit w/o trimming. It arrived today, but I haven't had time to install it. Hopefully in the next day or two. Will post back here with the results.

 

[DieselBound]

The tines don't look very worn on that tiller. Maybe just looks cruddy because it's sat.

Gearboxes- I'd look to drain and replace fluids and generally clean things up so I could watch for leaks. Check blade bolts, belts and chains. Grease all grease fittings (don't forget the ones for the 3pt bits on your tractor!).

PTO shafts ARE important to keep in proper working condition. No one every brought this to my attention: I ended up running one RC with a PTO that didn't have any covers on either end. Keep these properly greased and the shafts lubed (a PTO I recently got from Bare Co. is supposed to be lubed every 10 hours of use). Liquid Film (or Slick Stuff - basically a knock-off of Liquid Film, but cheaper, as knock-offs tend to be) are supposed to be good for shaft lubrication (learned that here and I'm going by it until proven otherwise).

Learn how PTO shafts are measured and be sure to only use shafts that meet spec. I bought a used RC for my NX5501 that the PO had used commercially (really beat!); he said he replaced the PTO shaft. OK, great, I thought... Checked it over to find that one of the U-joints was starting to fail so I had my local NAPA pop a new one in. Lasted a few hours. I believe what went wrong was that the shaft was NOT straight and that it was too short (overlap). I went with a heavier-duty shaft from Bare Co., one that actually met my required spec (didn't have to cut it). My new tiller required cutting the PTO shaft- measure THREE time and then a FOURTH before cutting! Also, know about shear pins and slip clutches, when each makes sense, how to deal with both (if both used). In most cases a tiller will have a slip clutch on the PTO (yours does) as this will allow you to till more and replace shear pins less.

PTO shaft guards can be replaced. I really like the ones from Bare Co. (Bare Co USA - Shaft Guard). I bought a new PTO from them and it had their guard: have not bought separately though.

 

[RalphVa]

You don't mention what type of end pieces the shafts have, e.g. the piece that goes over the tractor's shaft.

My original ones for the 4010 tractor and its JD bush hog came with one of those pull-back covers to release the splines inside to slide over the PTO shaft. This, to me, is a very bad design, e.g. you're pulling on one part while pushing the whole bit the other way. I favor (and now all I have) the push button type. They have a push button that releases the splines inside. Even those 2 are different. The one on my chipper/shredder has a very well defined push button; whereas, the one on the end of the bush hog PTO shaft has a push button that's near recessed. I've glued a piece onto it to make it project up more, to make it easier to push.

I always put the PTO in the "forward" position (neutral, if you don't have a forward one) so that you can rotate the shaft to find the right orientation of the shaft to allow the PTO to go onto it. Of course, grease both first with white grease, but I also put some of that special slippery stuff around the ends of the splines (forgotten what it's called: very slippery stuff).

You'll also want those implements on dollies or wheels where possible, to make it easy to move them about to get them in the right position to get the lift arms on.

Ralph