NEED HELP- WIRING CABIN:INVERTER PROBLEM

escavader · Sep 3, 2007

HI
Ididnt know the answer so ill ask you folks,you always come thru for me.
Since 2000 we have been powering our remote cabin with a generator ,and an inverter-battery bank when the generator isnt running.We havent had to many problems,but recently due to the tangled mess of extention cords in the camp,i decided to install a 100 amp panel and some breakers.What i had before was a #10 under ground wire run from the shed to the camp direct to a plug in for the fridge.I had teed off from that outlet to another.Basically i have been running the fridge,a fan,a couple radios,and a coffee maker.[note only the generator would power thiscoffee maker ,it was too much for the 600 watt inverter.]
What i do is run a tank full of gas [2 hrs] thru the generator,and charge up the battery bank.Then when it runs out of gas,i unplug the line to the camp from the generatoroutlet and reinstall in the inverter and turn it on.running time depends on how hot it is and how much the fridge runs.On adverage i can go 8 hours until recharge time.
Like said before ,i wanted more than this tangled mess of cords,and thought id hook up a panel for safety reasons[having breakers.So i go to lowes buy a panel,some wire ,outlets etc100 amp main,ground rod etc.Being no stranger to household electricity,i get it all hooked up,and it works flawlesly with the generator,but when i turn on the inverter it immediately kicks to fault mode.

Thinking this inverter might be too small to power this box,i shut off the main,and it still goes to fault.I unhooked the ground cable at the camp,same thing

Weird part is every thing works fine with generator power feeding this line.I cant understand with the main off why the inverter kicks off.
When i put my electric tester in the inverter outlet,i have correct voltage ac same as the gen when its running 120or something.I have 13 something volts dc at the terminals on the back of the inverter.I tryed a radio direct in the inverter and it worked.I tryed a skilsaw and it wouldnt even start to turn it.Ihad nothing else up there to try,short of lugging the fridge to the generator shed

.Although i have a new panel and new wiring,i am not trying to power any thing extra them before.
My wife said before all this ,the fridge had been acting funny,not running when it should etc,only on inverter not generator power.Could thes inverter have gone to pot?its a portawattz 600 modified sine wave type.If you think i should replace it what do you reccomend?
Im showing a bunch of pics,mabey you can see something screwy.I have not altered a thing in the generator shed,its all still as it was before i rewired the camp.Would appreciate any thoughts.

randy41 · Sep 3, 2007

isn't the output from the inverter one line hot and one line common? don't you have both of them feeding into the main breaker?

hockeypuck · Sep 3, 2007

This sounds stupid, but did you make sure you did not mix up your wires in the male plug end? It looks like the only thing that could cause that problem.

hockeypuck · Sep 3, 2007

randy41 said:
isn't the output from the inverter one line hot and one line common? don't you have both of them feeding into the main breaker?

I think he is combining both sides of the panel into one with that splice....correct?

escavader · Sep 3, 2007

randy41 said:
isn't the output from the inverter one line hot and one line common? don't you have both of them feeding into the main breaker?

no only the black.it is split where the electric tape is ,so i can power both lugs of my main.The white and bare come in and go to the grounding terminal.The big cable in the gr
grounding terminal goes to the camp ground rod.
ALAN

escavader · Sep 3, 2007

hockeypuck said:
This sounds stupid, but did you make sure you did not mix up your wires in the male plug end? It looks like the only thing that could cause that problem.

nope ,and this all works perfect when powered by the generator.
ALAN

escavader · Sep 3, 2007

hockeypuck said:
I think he is combining both sides of the panel into one with that splice....correct?

YES,I have to to power both sides of my panel
ALAN

hockeypuck · Sep 3, 2007

Does the inverter need to have the neutrals and grounds seperated, like a gfi? If you are courageous, take a wire and cross the neutral and the ground (on the inverter) and see if it goes into fault, make sure you get the right ones or you will get a nice light show.

BobRip · Sep 3, 2007

I don't have a clear solution for you, but some suggestions.
Does the refrigator have a defrost cycle. If is does that can pull 900 watts to run the defrost heater. Obviously your inverter could not handle this. This does not really sound like the problem, since you have been running on the inverter earlier.

Do you have a ground at the generator, inverter, or battery bank. If so I would try to temporarily disconnect these grounds. I see you tried to disconnect the ground from the panel, a good thought. Two grounds might be a bad thing. The batteries (I believe) must be ungrounded.

Try running a temporary cord from the refrigator to the inverter and see if it will power it. Perhaps the frige is now pulling more power due to aging, locked cooling fan (if it has one) or something else.

What guage wire is now running from the inverter to the panel? Did you enlarge it, make it smaller, or longer. If it is smaller on longer then extra voltage drop could account for this problem. How long is this run?

I have a 1kW inverter which will not start my 22 cu ft. fridge. So they can be hard to start. How large is your fridge? Did you leave the fridge off for at least 2 minutes prior to repowering it. This gives the freon a chance to loose back pressure and it starts easier.

I hope this helps. I am not an expert here.

escavader · Sep 3, 2007

hockeypuck said:
Does the inverter need to have the neutrals and grounds seperated, like a gfi? If you are courageous, take a wire and cross the neutral and the ground and see if it goes into fault, make sure you get the right ones or you will get a nice light show.

I dont know the answer,mabey your on to something.Iguess they would have been seperate running direct to an series of outlets like i had them.Now they are togeather.I could run one up to that vacant screw terminal bar on the right side.which one bare or white? and how do i ground that,seperate rod ,or do i need to?Mabey you hit the nail on the head,but camps 25 miles away,might not get to try til next weekend
ALAN

hockeypuck · Sep 3, 2007

There is already a ground bar installed in your panel. Take the ground wire off of the neutral bar and put in on the ground bar which is attached to the metal box of the panel board. Take your ground wires and put them on that new bar. Make sure you remove the bonding screw or jumper from the neutral bar because it bonds it to the case, you do not want that now (there may not be one but if you see a large green screw in your neutral bar take it out.)

PS I checked the picture again, it looks like there is no bonding strap or screw so you are good to go.

escavader · Sep 3, 2007

BobRip said:
I don't have a clear solution for you, but some suggestions.
Does the refrigator have a defrost cycle. If is does that can pull 900 watts to run the defrost heater. Obviously your inverter could not handle this. This does not really sound like the problem, since you have been running on the inverter earlier.NO its a small college size fridge

Do you have a ground at the generator, inverter, or battery bank.
yes the generator is grounded
If so I would try to temporarily disconnect these grounds. I see you tried to disconnect the ground from the panel, a good thought. Two grounds might be a bad thing. The batteries (I believe) must be ungrounded.

Try running a temporary cord from the refrigator to the inverter and see if it will power it. Perhaps the frige is now pulling more power due to aging, locked cooling fan (if it has one) or something else.i was going to ,but need about 200 ft of cord

What guage wire is now running from the inverter to the panel? Did you enlarge it, make it smaller, or longer. If it is smaller on longer then extra voltage drop could account for this problem. How long is this run? same as before,didnt think it was a problem as long as i didnt draw any more current then i have been.

I have a 1kW inverter which will not start my 22 cu ft. fridge. So they can be hard to start. How large is your fridge? Did you leave the fridge off for at least 2 minutes prior to repowering it. This gives the freon a chance to loose back pressure and it starts easier.its one of those 4 ft high fridges,i never had to wait before

I hope this helps. I am not an expert here.

i appreciate the ideas ALAN

escavader · Sep 3, 2007

hockeypuck said:
There is already a ground bar installed in your panel. Take the ground wire off of the neutral bar and put in on the ground bar which is attached to the metal box of the panel board. Take your ground wires and put them on that new bar. Make sure you remove the bonding screw or jumper from the neutral bar because it bonds it to the case, you do not want that now (there may not be one but if you see a large green screw in your neutral bar take it out.)

PS I checked the picture again, it looks like there is no bonding strap or screw so you are good to go.

HOCKEY PUCK,
WHen you say wires ,do you mean both of them coming in from the inverter[white and bare] or just the bare one.does this bar need to be run to a seperate ground rod? What happens if there is a short?
ALAN

hockeypuck · Sep 3, 2007

White wire from inverter leave where it is now.
Bare copper wire from inverter put on bar on right side of panel.
Ground wire (from ground rod) goes on the bar on right side of panel. Remove it from the current neutral bar.
I would ground your generator to the same ground rod that your panel is on. It would not hurt to put another ground rod in and tie them together.

escavader · Sep 3, 2007

hockeypuck said:
White wire from inverter leave where it is now.
Bare copper wire from inverter put on bar on right side of panel.
Ground wire (from ground rod) goes on the bar on right side of panel. Remove it from the current neutral bar.
I would ground your generator to the same ground rod that your panel is on. It would not hurt to put another ground rod in and tie them together.

I dont know if there is a hole big enough to accept that cable.I dont recall one and dont see one in the pic. If i need to swap it ,would it be wise to run to my rod with a smaller wire?generator ground-I could ground them togeather but the generator is like 200 feet away.could it cause a problem being grounded seperate? I guess i could by some cable and link them.

hockeypuck · Sep 3, 2007

You can get a lug to put on the ground bar to accept the wire. As far as the generator ground, it would not hurt to just put a ground bar by the generator and ground the frame.

escavader · Sep 3, 2007

hockeypuck said:
You can get a lug to put on the ground bar to accept the wire. As far as the generator ground, it would not hurt to just put a ground bar by the generator and ground the frame.

Could i move all my white wires up to the right sideand leave all the copper ,and ground rod wire where they are and accomplish the same?probably not,but thought id ask

My generator frame is grounded to a rod .If you look in that pic youll notice the wire.
If you lose me tonite ,ill respond tommorow 4.00 comes early

thanks for your patience with my 50 questions

ALAN

tallyho8 · Sep 3, 2007

It would be ok to use a smaller ground wire. We usually just use a 10ga. copper wire. It sounds like your generator is 200 feet from your breaker box and you are running 10 ga. wire from the generator to the breaker box which would cause a voltage drop in that long run but that should not be a big problem since your generator is powering the few things you have ok and your inverter was too at one time. Since your inverter won't run a skill saw plugged directly into it, it sounds like it is not performing properly. A skill saw shouldn't use more electricity than the refrigerator, fans and lights that you were powering before.

After you isolate your grounds from your neutrals, if it doesn't work you better further test your inverter.

rosietheriviter · Sep 4, 2007

escavader said:
HI
What i do is run a tank full of gas [2 hrs] thru the generator,and charge up the battery bank.Then when it runs out of gas,i unplug the line to the camp from the generatoroutlet and reinstall in the inverter and turn it on.running time depends on how hot it is and how much the fridge runs.On adverage i can go 8 hours until recharge time.
Im showing a bunch of pics,mabey you can see something screwy.I have not altered a thing in the generator shed,its all still as it was before i rewired the camp.Would appreciate any thoughts.

Hi escavader,

My background is with NASA spacecraft assembly, 22 years. That does not give me any knowledge that most others do not have, just a little more of the "test it three (or thirty) times before putting it into service" mentality.

As a troubleshooting suggestion, you might try the following:
Try inverter and cord to each individual appliance/device.
Disconnect each power input, one at a time.
Disconnect each outlet breaker, one at a time.

The prices and availability of the newest invertors suggest an increase in inverter size might be a worthwhile consideration.

Without the ability to explain why, I got a gut feeling the problems might be more of a battery problem.

Rose is Rose