Need info on hooking up/controlling grapple..

   / Need info on hooking up/controlling grapple.. #1  

crabjoe

Gold Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
308
Location
Ceciltucky, MD
Tractor
Kioti CK20S HST
It's been a long time since I've been here... as in years ... but I'm back again looking for some help.

I own a CK20S with the factory FEL and backhoe. I'd like to get a grapple but I'm a bit confused as to how to control it.

From what I remember, the way most hooked the control up was by using the hydraulics from the rear with a long hose. I'm guessing I'll need 2 hoses with some quick connects. My issue now is how do you control the grapple lid? Can I use the existing controls I have or do I need some other parts?

BTW, anyone know what length/size hoses and quick connects I need? Is there a place that sells them already made or will I need to find a shop that makes them custom?

Thanks!
 
   / Need info on hooking up/controlling grapple.. #2  
I used a diverter valve kit from KennyD Bolton hooks. Holding an added switch on the FEL control lever diverts the hydraulics and allows you to operate the grapple with the lever pulling back to open grapple and push forward to close. I don't have rear remotes yet.

Use a garden hose or piece of rope to measure length of hoses needed. Then buy from bulk store in precut lengths like Surplus Center or Tractor Supply. Most of us go to hydraulic store and have them custom made though. The price is comparable.
 
   / Need info on hooking up/controlling grapple.. #3  
Having just done this very project a couple months ago (after almost a years worth or reading & research) - I think I can offer some assistance.

You have 3 basic options, the specifics of each will vary by tractor model.

Option 1 - Use existing Rear Remotes / SCV
As you have already stated you simply need a pair of hoses long enough to reach from the rear of the tractor to the front of the loader where the grapple hoses are.
Depending on how you route them and how often you remove your loader, some suggest adding a set of disconnects in these hoses (making them 4 shorter hoses instead of 2 long ones in reality). This will let you leave one pair always on the loader (from the grapple to the disconnect point) and the other pair from the remotes to the disconnect point. Which saves you from having to unhook / clamp / tie the hoses and re-route them every time.

The length(s) of hose in this method don't have to be super precise so using the garden hose method to measure and ordering hoses / couplings online will probably get you the cheapest results.


Option 2 - Diverter Valve
Here you have 2 paths to follow. A Pre-made kit (from some of TBN's members like KennyD or possibly MtnViewRanch) - or- You can build your own.
Building your own may result in some net savings but you have to allow for everything you have to design, engineer, and fabricate along the way that someone else has already done (and refined) if you buy a kit (Mistakes cost money. I know I made a bunch. LOL).

lennyzx11 - already gave a good basic overview of how a diverter works. Typically the diverter is installed in the curl / dump circuit (or you can use the lift/lower circuit - totally your preference) and is mounted close to the bucket on the loader. This results in just a couple short hose runs, fairly easy installation, and a lower price than a true 3rd function.

It works by having a single "momentary" switch installed on your loader control knob. When the switch is Open (i.e. Not Pressed) which ever circuit you tapped works as normal. When the switch is closed (Pressed) the diverter changes flow from the primary function you split to the grapple lid. So for example if you split the Curl / Dump circuit - Moving the stick to dump WITHOUT the button would dump the grapple, WITH the button pushed the grapple stays in place but the lid closes.

The disadvantage to this set-up (in general) is you lose the ability to operate all three functions together. **

Option 3 - True 3rd function
This is the most complex and most expensive of the three options.
Here again you have the same 2 paths of Kit vs Build your own. Likewise I think KennyD & MtnViewRanch can both hook you up here as well. Also depending on who you are getting your grapple from; they may offer a kit as well (one of the most popular ones is from W.R. Long and is used by several vendors & dealerships)

I have a thread over in the Customization forum on my build it yourself 3rd function (which needs some additions as I get some loose ends fixed this week)

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/customization/358086-kioti-ck-35-3rd-function.html

The 2 main drawbacks to a true 3rd function are complexity & cost. The biggest advantage to a true 3rd function (again - in general) is the ability to operate all 3 functions together. **

For a 3rd function you will install a solenoid valve instead of a diverter - this valve is usually put in the line that leaves the "power beyond" port on your Front End Loader valve and goes to the rear of your tractor to feed the 3pt hitch (and/or rear remotes depending on the tractor).

From this same valve you will also run 2 lines all the way to the front of the tractor to power the grapple lid.

The way this operates is you have a toggle / rocker style switch (or a 2 button set-up) installed on your loader control knob and pushing the switch one way will open the grapple lid, and pushing the other way will close it.


** - The "fine print"
The reason I added "in general" to both the diverter & 3rd function descriptions is because all of these functions/valves are in series. Fluid flows from one to the next thru the series. This style of flow path gives priority to the functions. The first function in the series uses all the available fluid flow it needs and the leftover (if there is any) then becomes available to the next function down, and so on.

As an example try lifting your loader and dumping the bucket at the same time. Unless you are very light on the stick, the loader will lift and the bucket will barely move or not move at all. This is because the flow capacity of the pumps on Sub-Compact and Compact tractors isn't high enough to supply the full flow demand of the lift & curl functions at the same time.

So when thinking about a diverter or 3rd function, please bear in mind that the comments about using multiple functions at once is "in theory". In actual practice you will most likely only be able to alternate between them.

Knowing this, I still opted for a true 3rd function set-up because the way the controls are situated & operate just felt more natural to me over a diverter set-up (and like lennyzx11 - we don't have rear SCV's yet either).

Hopefully this gives you more material to think about and answers more questions that it creates.

Good luck with your project whatever route you decide to take.
 
   / Need info on hooking up/controlling grapple.. #4  
I used the rear remotes for my grapple jaw. Followed the measurement advice already listed above and just used ty-raps to route the hose to the front of the FEL. I use the rear remote lever to open/close the grapple jaw, and the normal FEL controller to raise/lower/tilt the grapple. A tad awkward the first few times i used it, but now it is second nature and I am glad I did not spring for the extra expense of a true 3rd function switch. Also, I considered putting another quick connect at the same spot as the FEL connections (in case you want to remove the FEL), but I figured I would rarely, if at all, remove the FEL on my tractor, and the grapple is so darn handy I leave it on almost exclusively now.
 
   / Need info on hooking up/controlling grapple..
  • Thread Starter
#5  
Thanks folks! I'm going to go with my existing rear remotes and just get a set of hoses made... It's the cheapest option and if I feel I need something different later, I can do that...

Any recommendations on type/size of quick connects and hose? How about a hydraulic hose shop? I just don't know where to go..

BTW, since I've owned my CUT, I've never had the hoe or FEL off of it... I swap out the bucket now and then for pallet forks, but never needed to remove either.

Thanks again!!
 
   / Need info on hooking up/controlling grapple.. #6  
Hoses:
I started a reply yesterday and quit because I was going to look up the Parker part # on the hose I used and I forgot it. I'll try to remember to look tonight. As long as it will withstand 3000 psi you should be ok.

Now - as for size - I'm no expert but for a run that long I would go with at least 3/8" hose (1/2" might be over kill but you definitely wouldn't have much friction loss. LOL).

Unless you want to start adding adapters or have "non-standard" hoses made; the easiest is to match the hose to the couplers you need.

What ends to get on the hose - again without adapters & fittings it's simplest to just get NPT that matches the couplers. Having just done a whole 3rd function set-up I now see the beauty of JIC fittings and would used them instead every where I could, but in your set-up it's really just adding extra hardware without adding any of the benefits.

Couplers:
ISO 5675 Agricultural will be the most commonly used.
They come in several sizes but 3/8" and 1/2" are the most common sizes.

From Discount Hydraulic:
3AGF3-AG3F3 | Set of 3/8" Couplers with 3/8" NPTF Threads - $13.58
4AGF4-AG4F4 | Set of 1/2" Couplers with 1/2" NPTF Threads - $15.33

Local vs Online:
There is value in the wisdom & expertise you get with the local guy that you can't put a price on (trust me I know).

That being said - I'm a cheap skate at heart so I would suggest at least pricing them online and see what the local shop(s) want & if the difference is ok w/ you then buy local.

Don't forget to account for cost & time delay of shipping online when you compare.
 
   / Need info on hooking up/controlling grapple..
  • Thread Starter
#7  
Thanks for the detailed info Steve.

When I was looking online yesterday, I found MIE, that has a premade kit for $350. I'm not sure what the kit includes, but based on what you posted as a price for the couplers, it seems high versus me just having a shop custom make me a set of hoses. I guess it's time for me to take measurements and call around to see what they cost to have built. I've got plenty of time since I don't own a grapple yet... I just want to get prepped for one.
 
   / Need info on hooking up/controlling grapple.. #8  
Crabjoe - one issue here for you to consider if you're going with your rear remotes to control the grapple: Hooking your grapple up to them means you can't use your backhoe unless you then disconnect the grapple from the rear remotes and hook the backhoe lines back up to the rear remotes. (I'm assuming that's how your backhoe is hydraulically connected to the tractor given that's the typical setup.)

If you don't see yourself needing to switch back and forth regularly than it's not a big deal, but if you do need to then you'll have to consider other options, all of which are unfortunately a lot more expensive than just running a couple lines from the rear remotes!
 
   / Need info on hooking up/controlling grapple..
  • Thread Starter
#9  
Already thought of that and it's a non issue. I rarely use the hoe, but I leave it connected for counter weight.

Thanks!
 
   / Need info on hooking up/controlling grapple.. #10  
Thanks for the detailed info Steve.

When I was looking online yesterday, I found MIE, that has a premade kit for $350. I'm not sure what the kit includes, but based on what you posted as a price for the couplers, it seems high versus me just having a shop custom make me a set of hoses. I guess it's time for me to take measurements and call around to see what they cost to have built. I've got plenty of time since I don't own a grapple yet... I just want to get prepped for one.

I know based on their write up that they include a pair of disconnects at the loader tower (so that's a total of 4 sets of couplers)

I *think* they also include a bulkhead set-up to give you a fixed attachment point on the loader (they show one in the picture anyway).

If you have basic tools, materials, and skills you can make one yourself (If I did it I know you can LOL). Mine isn't quite as finished / nice looking as theirs but it works and (other than 2 NPT elbows and some fender washers) didn't cost me anything but time.

Bear in mind that when buying a kit, you're not just buying the sum of the parts but also paying for the time someone else spent doing the "leg work" of measuring, fabricating, etc and also the convenience of "bolt & go".

So you have to factor your time & it's value to you into the price. If buying a kit cost you $50 more but saves you 2 hours - are you worth $25/hour to yourself (you don't have to answer that here LOL)


Also - I didn't forget about finding the hose specs. Apparently my receipts for that got into the wrong pile & thrown out. It will be Tomorrow or Sunday before I can get up to the farm where the tractor is and actually look at the hoses.
 

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

UNUSED JCT QUICK ATTACH 84" GRAPPLE BUCKET (A51244)
UNUSED JCT QUICK...
Woods Brush Bull 7' 3 pt Mower (A50514)
Woods Brush Bull...
2010 International 4400 National Crane 300C Crane Truck (A50323)
2010 International...
IH Farmall 706 Tractor (A50514)
IH Farmall 706...
2016 INTERNATIONAL PROSTAR 113 T/A DAY CAB ROAD TR (A51243)
2016 INTERNATIONAL...
2016 Ford Explorer AWD SUV (A51694)
2016 Ford Explorer...
 
Top