need large culvert in central ohio

RedDog · Feb 13, 2005

Mb25acres,

Do you have any pictures of your creek? I would be wanting to do it the cheapest way possible (like you).

Check your local state highway garages and or township garage.

I have a small creek on my property with about 10' tall banks. I've been thinking of checking state garages around me for a "junk" culvert pipe that they dug up to replace it. If I do, I'm going to roll the pipe into the creek and start shoving dirt around it.

I delivered freight to a state garage a couple of years ago and they had a big culvert setting there, (old one that they replaced). I'm guessing it was about 10' or 12' round and about 25' long. I asked about it and they said whenever they dig one up it goes to main garage for the area to be put up for bid. The gentlemen I talked to said generally around $100 to $200.

The main state garage for that area was at the intersection of State Route 13 and 40, just north of Interstate 70.

I would try giving them a call. I would not involve all these other $$$$$ people /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Good luck, RedDog

AndyMA · Feb 13, 2005

( In many states, a permit is required to build a bridge or culvert. This is to protect the people upstream from being flooded if you back up water, or the people downstream if your road and culvert become a dam and then wash out. They can get pretty nasty, imposing big fines and making you demolish your unpermitted structure if you fail to get a permit.
)

DO NOT FORGET and Army Corp of Engineers permit or waiver also. ALL streams in the US come under their control unless they give you a waiver. $25,000 a day fine. This permit is in addition to anything you need to be granted locally or state wise. You need to send the Army a statement of what you intend to do and enought info to determing if it is a "water of the United States of America" . I just went through this and they were very nice to deal with. The local Inland Wetlands commission and state DEP never mentioned this. My civil engineering firm said to make sure I apply. They were in the process of working through a $250,000 fine for digging a pond.

Andy

AndyMA · Feb 13, 2005

BTW. $11,000 for what your trying to do is a real good price. Just wait until you add up all the rest of the costs. I hope I'm wrong, but on my farm i have over $40,000 and 3 years into just engineering and permiting without even stilling a shovel into the ground yet /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif And I have a Inland Wetlands Public hearing scheduled for Feb 24. Wish me luck. Any body in central mass, Conn or RI that is interested I would love some support and you can get to see first hand how these agancies operate /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Andy

drm · Feb 13, 2005

I can feel for your situation. It is very frustrating to the average guy all of the government hoops you must jump through and the apparent lack of coordination on their part. There have been some very good suggesting and the Ohio Stream ... gives some good information. A good deal of time spent up front will hopefully eliminate undue costs.

The quote if you call it that, by the engineer you spoke with is unreasonable. Talk with some more engineers. Do your research first so that you can talk intelligently. When you are ready to get bids from the engineers preparing a scope of work for them will get you a good estimate.

Good luck and ask any additional questions as you go. There are a lot of good people on here.

rambler · Feb 14, 2005

I didn't realize you have not gone through the permit hassles yet. Sorry, that's how it is. If you are spanning a dug drainage ditch, there is one set of people to go through; if a natural creek a different set of people to go through.

Ohio leans far enough to the Left for this to be a real issue for you. You can run into very helpful people, or very hard-nosed people at the offices you need to visit. Most try to help you out. Best not to walk in looking to cut corners or get by, that sometimes doesn't sit well with the hard nosed people.

I would not ignore these issues, that can be a real bad path to follow. For a small part time creek all on your land - maybe. But a 10' culvert is _nothing_ to ignore, you will be affecting others & drawing attention to the project.

If it is a natural stream, the wildlife is more important than yuo & the current laws are set to bill highway depts for the costs, so things get time consuming & expensive unless you are part of the process already.

If it's a dug ditch, then they want it on your head that no one ever had any drainage issues above or below you - and that is probably a good thing. In addition you need to prove that you do not drain any wetlands in the process, which cycles you back to the first set of people somewhat.

Life has gotten hard the past 15 years for the little guy, farmers deal with these issues every day, & it only gets worse.

--->Paul

SPIKER · Feb 14, 2005

I didn't go and read the link someone provided above but have been involved in a few bridge descussions spanning creeks and or flooding ravines in ohio. not fun or cheap for sure!! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif they must meet fire truck requirements now and that means fully loaded tanker truck, 80K lbs or something like that. also must do some other garb such as stream management no silt or backups ect... big headachs for sure.

anyhow if you are FARMING and making a path for tractor and not for a house then things can change. BUT don't try and get around it if you thinking about building back there. as Im in a similar predicterment with my 22 acres of land... seasonal runoff stream crosses my place but a really really nice building spot the other side (only real prob is the driveway.) seasonal streams can be messed with SOME but you can still get into problems with epa & ODNR for errosion and or damming with out permit ect.

MarkM Jeromesville OH near mansfield.
/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Currmudgeon · Feb 15, 2005

( The quote if you call it that, by the engineer you spoke with is unreasonable. Talk with some more engineers. )

Actually, I thought it was pretty cheap, but question the "ten year only" limitation. If the stream was part of a FEMA flood study, and that's the common situation, then the 100 year is already calculated - and may be directly useable. You can't buy many manhours for $1,200, nor the liability that comes with them.

Engineers have a problem with small jobs. They have as many hassles and risks as large jobs. As many goofy, random problems arise. Perhaps more, because dealing with amateurs is a pain - it takes more time and time is money. So the hassle factor that, on a large job, is buried in coffee drinking time and potty breaks, becomes a significant cost factor and there is no manhour buffer to cover them. It's an easy way to loose your butt.

Creek work is difficult to quote a lump sum for. If you get one, there will probably be enough exclusions, that it will be meaningless. I'd expect to pay by the hour, but be prepared to watch those hours.

Definitely, call more engineers. The more people you talk with, the better iis your chance of getting a good deal or a smarter injunear.

drm · Feb 15, 2005

Dennis,

Like you I am an engineer and have designed all sizes of structures from small shoring projects for plumbers (talk about a lot of liability for little pay) up to major sports and government centers. I have even had the opportunity to demolish a major sports stadium. I read the $1,200 cost for only providing the height of the ten year flood stage. Maybe I read wrong. I agree, the stream crossing needs to meet the 100 year level which is readily available. This is why I questioned the cost.

A lump sum bid is difficult but the bid can be broken down, estimated, and fairly accurate numbers, with provisions for overruns can be achieved for each stage of the project. I am constantly bidding on projects with just a 1/2 hour verbal discussion with an architect that IS lump sum. A good, experienced engineer can give a fairly accurate estimate if he knows everything he is expected to perform. This is why I recommended talking with several engineers and the appropriate authorities before hiring a firm.

This type of work is difficult but there are qualified firms that will work with reasonable people even if they have no knowledge of what they need. The costs are just a lot higher.

…Derek

mb25acres · Feb 15, 2005

here is a pic of my creek. the right bank is about 6 ft high.the
lt bank is over 10 ft in most spots. the water in pic is only at
10-12 inches. the water was recently just above the bases of the trees on right.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/1110/sort/1/cat/500/page/1
http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/1113
http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/1111
http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/1114
I posted other pics that will help you see the lay of the land, and where I am trying to reech.

mb25acres · Feb 16, 2005

I posted two more pics they are all together in the photos section. one is a pic of an old I beam bridge that is on the bigger of the two creeks that join and go across the front of my
land. if you look at the pic with the camper it joins just behind it. I was going to use the bridge for atv, but with the last rain we had that is what washed up against it. the water then washed out on the side closest to the bottom of pic. it dropped about 1 1/2- 2ft and unless I figure out a simple way to fix, I will probably have to cut the beams out. I had the creek cleared until recently. the beams on this one are 20ft.
the other one shows my daughter
at the joining of the creeks. I am not sure but the one that is smaller maybe a county ditch, but the other is definately a natural one. I have seen the water at her waste line alittle over a month ago.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/1116
http://www.tractorbynet.com/photos/showphoto.php/photo/1115

dummy · Feb 16, 2005

If you get one, there will probably be enough exclusions, that it will be meaningless. I'd expect to pay by the hour, but be prepared to watch those hours.
 A completely true statement regardless of the type of project. You have to be prepared for the (sub)contractor not coming back also.

mb25acres · Feb 19, 2005

I posted pics there is links on the bottom of paige three of this post. not sure if anyone saw the links. was looking for comments on what you thought.
Mike

txdon · Feb 19, 2005

mb25acres, As a last resort, if you are interested in a road trip, I can check with my Uncle to see if he has a 10' but you would have to drive to Lee County Texas to pick it up. How long do you need it. I got an 8' X 8' one for $75.00 from him and used it for the ATV Bridge. What about two 6' X 6' and then cut out a lower flood path (about a foot lower than the top of the culvert) that goes about 20' away and around the culvert so it won't wash out?

mb25acres · Feb 20, 2005

I want it to be atleast 20ft long. I am interested in seeing pics of what you meant. It sounds like a good idea. do you or anyone else have photos of the diversion thing to stop washout. I talked to someone locally that thinks he can locate
a 10ft tank 30-40 ft long for around 5000.00. what does anyone know about doing this and will I be able to get a permit for using a tank like this as a culvert??????

Mike

txdon · Feb 20, 2005

mb25, The county land guys that designed my pond told me about the diversionary flood path I'll take some photos (in about two weeks) and post them. I have have had two deluges of rain since then and no washout on my 4' culvert. Did you see the culvert/bridge sides Harvey and North Texas TBNers built on top of that 8 ft culvert. It is so beautiful and functional!!!

mb25acres · Feb 20, 2005

I did see that and followed it as it was built it is a masterpiece for sure, not sure if I can do anything that extensive on the ends of mine.I do think I will conect cable to it. two on each side attached to deadman anchors to hep hold it in place.
Mike

Darren · Feb 20, 2005

You may be able to determine the 100 year flood elevation yourself. Someone at your county courthouse should have the FEMA flood insurance rate maps (FIRMS). The older paper maps have the flood plain shown as a blacked out area. If a FIRM exists for your area, the elevation of the 100 year flood will be shown on the map.

If the elevation is within the confines of the creek you may have an easier permitting situation. If it's out in the floodplain somewhere you could be responsible for damages to upstream neighbors if your structure causes flooding of their property.

We have a local situation where a property owner got a permit from the Public Lands Corporation (West Virginia) to build a bridge to timber his property. The bridge as built did not match the plans. Years later an elementary school that had never flooded in recorded history did so twice in one year. Now the Army Corps of Engineers is conducting a study to determine why the school flooded. I'm sure the landowner never contemplated that happening. If his bridge is the cause, I wouldn't want to be in his shoes with a federal document proving his bridge caused the damage.

From your description the culvert downstream is what called an arch plate culvert. Whatever you install should pass at least as much water as that culvert. If you don't have any close upstream neighbors a lot of problems go away.

mb25acres · Feb 20, 2005

I can check more with the courthouse on wed. the culvert dowm stream is a complete circle. I would like to find out where the 100 year flood plane is.
Mike

Cdash · Feb 23, 2005

$1200 for an engineer unreasonable? I love those thoughts!! I am an engineer. I went to school to specialize in a career. Then people like you don't want to have to pay for my specialty. Running prices down is good for you, until some trys to cut corners and forgets one little thing, or hits the wrong button on a calculator and BAM, failure. After your roof falls on your head (or your childs), will that low cost engineering be worth it? I bet you won't be bragging about the $1000 bucks you saved then. It will be all engineers that caused your problem, not the cheap fly by night engineer that you hired.

Would you low bid an attorney going up against the engineer that goofed? Do you low bid your doctors? Engineers have to be licensed, and structural engineers are sued more than any other engineering specialty in the world. We are expensive, because we design things with life safety in mind and everyone sues us everytime there is a crack in thier drywall. We'll ignore that it was the architect the specified the drywall and it's connecting elements.

People see engineers like they see products at best buy.

mb25acres · Feb 23, 2005

Cdash. maybe you did not read all that I get for my $1200.00. The level of the 10 ten year flood only. I have not been able to get to the courthouse as of yet, but if the 100yr
flood level is available as some have suggested and is public info. I do believe that paying you or any other Engineer $1200.00 to drive 3/4 of a mile and look it up for me plain ridiculious. I do not believe that if you were actually engineering (designing) something for me than I would understand a little more. I only was asking if I were to use I beams to go 20ft across and 16 ft wide what size would I need
and what spacing. I was assuming all responsibility for the abutments, and I also specified the decking material. they said they would send me a quote for these services, and did not they stated it would be 1200.00 for the flood plain only any sizing of beams or any other calculations would not be included.
Mike