need large culvert in central ohio

Henro · Feb 23, 2005

$1200 for an engineer unreasonable? I love those thoughts!! I am an engineer. I went to school to specialize in a career. Then people like you don't want to have to pay for my specialty. 

LOL...I take it you consider yourself somewhat different than a plumber then? /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Might be better to stress how you earn your fees, rather than how you deserve them because you happened to get "an education."

Harsh words? Maybe. Truth? Probably...My opinion? Most certainly! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Darren · Feb 23, 2005

The guy has a point. Engineering companies aren't as common as plumbing companies. An engineer has to spend the time in college, take a test to become an EIT or intern, then work under direction for a period and then take and pass the test to become a PE. The time required to get to that point is more like a doctor than a plumber.

Depending on the engineering company and the services it offers, the overhead can be staggering. Last I looked the starting salary for an engineer graduating from a West Virginia school was in the high thirties. The guy who wanted a culvert sized presents a typical civil engineering problem. What hasn't been considered is what's upstream of that location. The engineer looking at the area of the watershed may have some public documents that show the 100 yr. discharge which may help or he may have to do everything from scratch.

If he has to start from the design rainfall, determine the upstream area, figure out the land use/land cover and all the other factors that apply, the figure quoted is a good deal. He'll have to model the watershed to get the flow. Sizing the culvert after that is relatively quick. It's everthing you have to do before that can drive the price. Engineering companies usually don't advertise rates but the big outfits can be $100/hr plus and that's an average. You get billed for each engineer times their hours times their rate plus the adjustment for overheads and profit.

Smaller engineering firms have less overhead and can do the job less expensively. Like anything else it pays to check several firms.

mb25acres · Feb 24, 2005

At 1200 they were not going to size ANYTHING. I wish I were rich and maybe I would not care about paying 20 or 30 thousand to cross this smallcreek. unfourtunately I am not. I am a somewhat young father of three trying to build a house in the country. I am not saying engineers are expinsive. I amonly stating my feelings towards one quote from one engineer, that did not even include what he told me he would send me a quote for. The fact of the matter may be that he did not want to size the beams without designing the entire bridge. I am just trying to get across the creek and still be able to afford to build on the other side.
Mike

drm · Feb 24, 2005

Craig,

Take it easy. Slow down, back up, and read the entire thread.

I am a structural engineer with a Bachelor of Structural Engineering (a very specialized degree if you want to talk engineering and education, this is not a common BS degree) and I have been practicing for many years. I have seen more cracks, construction problems, collapses, failures, etc. than most in their entire lifetime. I have many years of design experience designing all sizes and types of building including major sports and government complexes. Currently, I specialize in construction and building problems and failures performing investigations, analyses and reports. I do this looking for the truth no matter what the cause. My clients know this and appreciate this. So I do know a little about the field. Problems and collapses happen because anyone can screw up.

The $1200 is for the 10 year flood level only. The structure should be designed for the 100 year flood level which is most likely readily available. So why pay for the 10 year flood level? I have designed structure on and near flood plains on many occasions and have been able to obtain this information with very little effort (i.e. less than 1 hour). A civil engineer that does this type of work on regular basis that is local to the project should have the flood maps or access to them. The engineer did not and apparently does not intend to provide pricing for the design that was asked to. This is B*** S***. If I never quoted a price I would be out of business post haste. And don’t tell me that any engineer is worth $1,200 per hour.

I do not pretend to be an expert on everything but in MY opinion, the estimate was not reasonable due to the lack of scope and pricing. This is MY opinion.

Henro is exactly right, neither you nor I deserve anything. One has to work for their pay no matter what the education or occupation. When I started in the field wages were way down. I was making less that the laborers on the construction site for a long time. I now make a good wage but I had to earn that with good work, diligence, and experience.

You certainly are entitled to your opinion but remember everyone else is also.

...Derek

mb25acres · Feb 28, 2005

Ok, I just got back from a small fact finding mission. First I went to talk to the county engineer. He said that the two waterways that join on my land are both creeks, and not county ditches. he then stated that the county does not do any maitenance on this creek, and that I am not taxed for such a service, which means that at no time will the come and dig it out or work on it at any time. They also said that there is no county permit required at all. they said the only thing that would be remotely needed would be contact the Army corp of engineers, he also stated that they rarely ever get a permit for any culverts or bridges that they place in the county. he stated that for that creek they would not even think about contacting them and would just put it in. He gave me the names of two companies that supply corrugated pipe of that size 10ft around and 20ft long and the numbers to call. I will be doing this later today. he stated that the only thing that I need to be concerned with is the possibility of floodin someone up creek, but that if I match the counties culvert that
it should not be an issue due to the fact that I will have 200-300 less acreage drainage going through mine as the county would have through their's. He told me that to get 10ft and a higher numbered guage steel and I will be fine.
the next stop was to the county building inspectors office, that is also the keeper of the 100yr flood plain maps. the inspector pulled the maps of the area where my land is. he then told me that my land is not a flood plain area and I could place my house any where I wanted on the land and according to the 100yr fema flood maps I will not have to worry.
Mike

mb25acres · Feb 28, 2005

I am glad I got the advice from some of the great people here on TBN. It took me 20 minutes and no money to get the 100 yr flood plain for my land.
thanks to all that suggested finding where the info was, and getting it myself. I saved $1200.00!!!!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I told the county engineer the quote that I got from the engineer he suggested and he was not happy. He then gave me the address and the name of the building inspector that was in charge of the 100 yr flood plain maps.
Mike

Currmudgeon · Feb 28, 2005

Glad to hear the County Engineer was helpful. Often they are "not allowed" to work on a private project, but since their real job is keeping the County Commissioners happy, keeping John Q Voter happy is usually good for his job. Plus, it is one of the few times he gets to be a "good guy." /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I'm surprised that NO permit is needed, but that means you're money ahead.

( he then told me that my land is not a flood plain area )

That surprises me with a creek across your land. That indicates to me that either the 100-Year flood stays in the creek banks, or it was never studied. Anyway, you seem to be off that hook.

If the proposed culvert acts as a restriction in the stream, that is, if it narrows the channel by much, you will want to watch out for erosion. A smaller channel means the same amount of water will pass at a higher velocity, and this may be enough to cause erosion problems where none had existed before. I was goint to suggest armoring the approaches with stone, but you can usually do that later, if you keep an eye on the culvert site. In particular, watch it when the creek is high, and see how the water swirls around. Maybe even float some oranges through the culvert to watch the flow pattern. Then, look at it after the water goes down, and see if there is any washout. If there is an erosion problem, you may be able to eyeball a solution on the basis of that information.

drm · Feb 28, 2005

Mike,

Glad that you were able to get the kind of information needed with just a little leg work. As stated previously, be sure to get a good solid bed of gravel under and around the pipe especially along the bottom sides to provide support. Also, if you do not place rip rap now, watch for erosion and add it if required.

Good luck, looks as though things will work out.

...Derek

mb25acres · Feb 28, 2005

the building inspector pulled out the study maps ( I was actually able to see from where I was standing as he checked 3-4 maps and said that my land did not include a floodarea within it. I told him that I had spent several rain storms viewing the water and had yet to see it come out of its banks.
He said that he could not go by that and was solely going by the study and the maps. he said that just becuase you have a creek does not mean that you have a flood plain.
I called the two numbers that he gave me and one said for the small amount that I wanted 1- 10ft by 20ft that for them it was not cost effective to retool to run such a small amount.
the second company that I called gave me the following.
12 guage 10ft round $3,077.00 (3 to 1) or (5 to 1) same
10 guage 10ft " " $3,788.00 price my choice
for 30.00 a ft I could have it aliminized
for 38.00 a ft I could have it sprayed with an asphault material
she said I could use one or the other or none.
the advantage of using it would be that it would increase the life of the culvert.
the price does include freight, but the amount I want is considered a half load. they may be able to add something else to it that will be coming to this area. if not may increase100-200.
she said that they run this size once a week, and given a notice could have it in two weeks.
in the morning I will call a few excavating companies to see what it will cost to prep creek and install.
I wish I already had a tractor so I could do the loader gravel work myself.
does anyone have any further suggestions comments any would be appreciated.
Mike

mb25acres · Feb 28, 2005

riprap????? are we talking about large 6-12inch rocks on the
side of the creek for bank protection or on the creek bed to adjust flow?????
Mike

drm · Feb 28, 2005

Yes, riprap is the large boulders you see along the sides of an earthen dam on the lake. The large rocks take the beating of the waves so that erosion of the soil/gravel beneath is not washed away. It should be used on the up stream side of the pipe to direct the water into the culvert so that the sides of the culvert are not washed away and undermined. The down stream side could also be washed out so it may need to be installed in the bottom of the stream bed at the end of the pipe.

If you are talking to excavators who have experience in this type of work they will know how to install it and how much should be used. I have only installed little (18” – 24”) culverts and only need to worry about rain runoff so I am not sure of specific details. But, I would assume some type of fabric/plastic should be installed under the riprap.

…Derek

Darren · Mar 1, 2005

Glad to read you didn't have any problem getting the info from the flood insurace rate maps. Those should be available in any city or county that belongs to the National Flood Insurance Program. FEMA has a list of those cities and counties on their website.

In West Virginia the DOH uses the asphalt covered culvert for new road construction. The old stuff used to also be galvanized beofre coating. If you buy the coated culvert make sure nothing damages the coating. That means the culvert should not be placed on rocks, nor should the backfill contain rocks. The coated culvert is best for long term service.

Good luck.

Darren · Mar 1, 2005

Following is a link that can be used by anyone trying to locate the flood maps with the 100 year flood for their area. The link will take you to a list of states. Click on your state for an alphabetical list of counties and cities within your state that belong to the National Flood Insurance Program (NFIP). If your county or city is listed, someone will have copies of the flood maps. Depending on your local government that could be an engineer, assessor, flood plain manager, building inspector, etc. If your area isn't included in the NFIP, the maps can be ordered directly from FEMA.

http://www.fema.gov/nfip/10110409.shtm

Some areas manage based on the 500 year flood or even the standard project flood which are greater than the 100 year flood.. In those areas, you'll have access to that info through the same source.

Henro · Mar 1, 2005

Darren,

THat is a pretty neat link!

Living towards the top of a hill, I doubt I will need one of those maps, but I was really surprised to see they are available for download for $1.50, and paper copies are $2.00... /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

drm · Mar 1, 2005

Darren,

Thanks for the link. Good to know.

Darren · Mar 1, 2005

Glad to see it might be useful for some folks.

mb25acres · Mar 1, 2005

thanks for the link. I talked to the contractor by phone I will meet him 1st of next week. I am not sure how I will be able to not use stone around pipe to prevent damage of coating.
if I just put dirt around it won't it just wash out. I am not sure how these things are installed.
Mike

mb25acres · Mar 1, 2005

I was thinking about talking to some of the farmers around that have piles of broken up concrete just sitting there I was thinking that I might be able tostack this in a V shape so that it would help direct it into the pipe. or will this not work
Mike

AndyMA · Mar 1, 2005

( And I have a Inland Wetlands Public hearing scheduled for Feb 24. Wish me luck. )

Yeah, my pond construction was approved under and ag exemption at the 2/24 meeting during a large snow storm. Other items om my application pending to March 10. Keep your fingers crossed for me. Thanks andy

Darren · Mar 1, 2005

Another option to consider is the use of wire baskets called gabions. They're shipped folded flat. After you unfold them, they form a basket with a lid. They come in various lengths and heights (L 6' & 9', H 1.5' & 3'). The width is usually 3'. To build a retaining wall you put the first layer of baskets in place and fill them with 3" to 8" rock. Close the lid. Place the the next layer. Fill with rock, etc. etc.

http://www.maccaferri-northamerica.com/