Need some home heating feedback: Wood boiler or fireplace insert?

[4570Man]

Firewood isn’t worth a lot in my area and I still think heating with propane or electric is a better deal than buying firewood. Firewood is worth at least double sometimes 4 times as much in other parts of the country. I don’t think they’re paying 4 times as much for propane and electric there. I don’t see the firewood deal as being a money saving plan especially with the upfront cost of burning equipment.

 

[dodge man]

A picture of my setup. No way around it, if I knew than what I knew now. My setup isn’t bad for efficiency, it has an outside air source, it has a fan that pulls air around the box, so it’s not bad. What I regret is not getting air tight doors. It will do a decent job of heating the house until it starts getting down to single digits.

There is some value to the atmosphere and looks of a fireplace, it’s sort of the centerpiece in our living room.

 

[ericm979]

Our old fireplace looked similar but did not have outside air, so maybe it was older and not as good. It would make the house colder since it pulled lots of air from inside the house and cold air would leak in to replace it. Not much heat produced either. I stopped using it because it was so bad.

We replaced it five years ago with an EPA zero-clearance fireplace (basically a wood stove in a box that can touch the framing) and that is far more efficient and useful. We go through about 2.5 cords a year.

 

[M59 gray]

Have a Buck model 91 wood stove. Can be used free standing or how we use it as an insert. Even though had a good masonry chimney, used double wall insulated SS flue pipe. Self cleaning, better draw and added safety feature. Don’t need kindling, starts like a blow torch.
After 20years of primary heat now backup to ductless heat pump. Can’t cut wood that cheap but still like a fire when it really gets cold in our old log farm house.

Catalytic stove so very efficient and clean burning. At the time had biggest fire box of different brands. Takes 24” long wood. Have changed the catalyst once and probably needs it again. Can smell wood smoke sometimes outside. 12 hour burn time. 33 years in use.

Ok- saw this post and have something to share:
My background-45 years HVAC, 30 years construction teacher, studied super insulation and heating systems, built 125 homes from scratch. Oh, and 12 years of wood heating.

In the UP of mi. Lots of wood heating.
I have designed and built in many units.
Hate-hate-hate outdoor wood boilers!!!! Expensive —-very low efficiency at the burn rates needed to heat common homes—— poison air quality (bad for all and in residential areas poison for neighbors also).
Very high maintenance demands.
High quality in house or garage or lean to rear yard add on is the place for a wood heater.
Many inserts are available that are reburns high eff. Stand alone wood stoves are very nice. Garage or basement super high eff speed burn storage type wood over water types used in Europe cab be found.
All of these are much better than outdoor wood heaters!
Many people swear by them (its like when you buy a new car you have to believe it’s a great car). I swear at them as a lemon is a lemon.

Sorry I went off. Just been around many units that poison the air and waste wood.

 

[Oaktree]

I'm fortunate in that we're in a single story house and the roof is not too steep. I think my pole sections and brush were well under $100. If worse comes to worse, I can pull the pipe between the stove and the chimney and clean the whole thing from the basement up. But that would be some dust in the face for sure!

My chimney is external to the house, so it's easy to stand on the ground and clean it. Good thing, my roof is slightly over 45° in pitch...wouldn't want to be up there any more than I absolutely need to!

I'm not a fan of burning wood inside the house so much dirt and debri as well as insects are introduced into the house.

Never had a problem with insects (winter's supply is stored in a woodshed about 25' from the house...only have a few days' worth in a woodbox on the porch, besides it's cold enough so they're mostly dead), but no argument that wood is messy.

At my propane price ($2.75/gallon), 1 cord of Madrone hardwood is worth about $900 in propane, taking the efficiencies of my stove and furnace into account.

Of course there are multiple costs involved with processing firewood while the propane just shows up on a truck. If you account for all of them, and your time, then firewood's not such a good deal.

Propane prices can vary considerably by region...I paid almost twice that for a fill in Dec. We only use it for cooking & hot water, way too expensive to heat with.

 

[CalG]

Regardless of the indoor burner type, "Outdoor Air Supply" is a big waste of intellectual energy.

Do the math on how much "fresh air" is required for combustion verses how many fresh air exchanges are needed in a living space to keep the rooms from feeling "stale" and "close". Orders of magnitude apart!

But there is a "chimney effect" of the heated space exploiting ever egress point, and so requiring "leakage" to make up for the pressure differential. CONVECTION is real.

Don't even get me started on "make up air" on a windy day when there can be a pressure differential across a home of several inches w.c.

 

[bcjmmac]

Another opinion
We installed an EPA Certified dual chamber clean burning fireplace when we built 13 years ago. It has an “outside” air vent that is only used when starting the fire (essentially a pipe to outside next to the fireplace). Once the fire is going & things are up to temp we close the vent & the fire draws air directly from outside when the airtight door is closed.
Our house is very airtight - turning on the range hood or using the clothes dryer creates negative pressure until the HRV kicks into high mode & balances things out (took several minutes when the house was tested after construction). As such, if we open the airtight door when either of those are on we get a backdraft of smoke into the house
The stove burns very clean - only a cup full of ash every few years when chimney is cleaned. We burn hardwood that has been dried minimum of 2 years & normally run with damper wide open. Rarely smell anything or see much smoke once the fire is up to temp.
The unit/fan throws a lot of heat - normally the HVAC does not come on when fireplace is going so we run the HVAC fan continually during the heating season
Should have gotten the optional capability to feed the heated air into the HVAC ducting

 

[Oaktree]

The stove burns very clean - only a cup full of ash every few years when chimney is cleaned. We burn hardwood that has been dried minimum of 2 years & normally run with damper wide open. Rarely smell anything or see much smoke once the fire is up to temp.
The unit/fan throws a lot of heat -

I would imagine it would. If I ran my stove with the damper open all the time, you'd be able to bake bread on the kitchen counter top, which is the diagonal opposite corner of the house from the stove. Even so, mine burns very clean. I'll clean the chimney once a year, rarely get more than a shovel full on a 25' chimney.

By "ash", I presume you mean creosote?

 

[bcjmmac]

Yes - ash equals creasote /whatever they scrape off the inside of the 2 story chimney

I regulate heat by amount of wood in the firebox

 

[M59 gray]

Our old fireplace looked similar but did not have outside air, so maybe it was older and not as good. It would make the house colder since it pulled lots of air from inside the house and cold air would leak in to replace it. Not much heat produced either. I stopped using it because it was so bad.

We replaced it five years ago with an EPA zero-clearance fireplace (basically a wood stove in a box that can touch the framing) and that is far more efficient and useful. We go through about 2.5 cords a year.

The zero clearance reborn high eff fireplaces are top shelf these days. I installed an Englenook years ago and can heat my 2800sf home easy during a 10f day if I want. It looks like and has the beauty of a true fireplace. Not a wood stove in the wall! My trouble is my back has reduced my wood burning to just some special days. But if n ended its there and sweet.
About 4-6 hours on a charge-3 nice logs.

 

[AnotherBueller]

We run through about $1800 worth of propane a year in our 5 year old home: 2200 sq ft ranch, 75% finished basement, 2 propane furnaces, on demand propane hot water heater, propane stove/oven, propane starter fireplace. We also use the fireplace a fair amount. We keep the thermostat at 68 during colder months, 65 when no one is in the house (mostly business hours when we are at our home office...another house on the property).

The home office is an older (32 years) house, 1400 square feet, used as our home office and a guest space; has a wood burning stove that we use November - February, with a heat pump/propane furnace as a backup. That house uses about $600/year in propane ($ use based on roughly $2.75 - $3/gallon propane in recent years). Propane water heater (usually left on pilot only), propane stove/oven (rarely used).

Even though our wood use is modest, perhaps 1 to 1.5 cords per year, we are enjoying processing firewood. Last year, I bought a traditional firebox-styled smoker grill, as well as a Kamado style grill, and we're cooking a lot with our own firewood, and making lump charcoal for use in both grills. We've become firewood hobbyists, on a small scale. We have 62 acres, mostly wooded, mixed hardwood and pine, and a lot of trees to work with.

I'm thinking about whether or not a fireplace insert makes sense, or is even possible, in the new house. The fireplace is a prefab metal insert, so I don't even know what's possible. It's a larger fireplace, and I've read mixed comments about whether or not it can be adapted to an insert.

A smaller, outdoor wood boiler is also a possibility. It would be a big project, running lines to both houses (they are about 200 feet apart), but I have a backhoe on my tractor and could do most of the install.

I know either solution has a relatively short payback in propane savings, and we could enjoy warmer temps in both houses.

Looking for feedback on any aspect of this.

I have a 44year old Vermont Castings wood stove. They also make inserts.

Vermont Castings Wood Fireplace Inserts | Forge & Flame

Transform your fireplace with Vermont Casting's wood fireplace inserts. Enjoy reliable warmth, energy efficiency, and the natural beauty of a wood burning fire.

forgenflame.com

Mine is the Resolute model, pre-cat. output ~6,000 BTU (?) with a dual wall stainless flue, and it's almost too much. It uses a max of 16" wood. My house is ~2,00 SqFt on two stories with the stove right next to the stairs going up. It has a thermostatic intake air control. With outside temps >30F, a load lasts all day.
Requires annual replacement of gaskets (if I remember to do so)
I can fully recommend it.
Bob

 

[sd455dan]

I don't there is any fire place insert that could compete with a wood stove for heat output.

My dad put a Blaze King Catalytic wood burning insert in place of their Fireplace and heated most of a 4000" sq. foot multi level house with it. He got tired of feeding it at 80 and converted the insert to gas.

The new Princess 29 insert:
~ 36000 BTU's for 9 hours on high.
or 11500 BTU's for up to 27 hours

I am biased to Blaze King Catalytic stoves though, 25 years + heating with them.
They are NOT an inexpensive stove or insert to buy though.

They are also an epa approved stove with only 1.26 grams per hour emissions rating

 

[shooterdon]

We heat primarily with wood in the winter. We've been doing it for over 10 years. I love it.

However, with that said, it only pays off if you don't put a value on your time. It is a lot of work! It brings a lot of dirt and dust into the house, you have to haul ashes out (ours is only about every 3-4 weeks, but it still has to be done), and processing firewood takes time. I spend one day dropping trees, one day hauling them to the landing, 5 days sawing them into 16-18" pieces and hauling them home on the trailer, and 5 days splitting to get the 6 cords we use in the coldest winters. So at least 12 days a year doing firewood.

12days X 8hours = 96 hours.
96 hours X $20 an hour (what I value my time at) = $1920

I saved nothing.

Now add in the cost of saw, gas, tractor, trailer, splitter, stove or boiler, installation on top of the nothing you saved...

With that said, I enjoy the tasks involved in getting firewood, I'm outdoors, getting good exercise and cleaning up a lot of deadfall and/or nuisance trees. So it has great mental and physical benefits. Just don't believe it'll save you a lot of money IF you value your time. If you have plenty of time on your hands it's well worth it.

As for outdoor wood boilers.... be cautious of where you place it and the predominant winds. Can't count the number of times we've seen the smoke from a dampered-down outdoor boiler blowing right at a house, or a neighbor's house, or just across a road. Also, think about how many times you'll have to go outside to load it. Even on the nastiest of days, you'll still have to tend to it.

I did that for years. I invested $13k in a firewood processor and buy logs. I go through 5 cords year for heating. That costs $700 for logs. I can process 5 cords in 15 hours. Figure $100 for fuel/oil/etc. Decent savings over propane.

I sell firewood and earn over $25/hr. in my spare time. So I save some money and make some money. I plan to spend 250 hours a year processing wood. That will let me pay off the processor in two years.

I do not need to fell trees, buck logs, lift rounds, lift splits or stack them. The split firewood goes directly into bulk bags from the processor. I am retired so it is a simple and easy side business the way I am doing it.

 

[dadohead]

We built in 2016 and designed for an outdoor woodburner. I'm retired and still fit so the decision was pretty easy. We have woods, trees go down anyway that need to be removed. I used to give them to friends and coordinated that work; now we just process them ourselves.

The insurance company was particularly interested in the details of our system. Once they saw pictures, things relaxed. Later, our agent mentioned indoor burning with a central mounted or basement stove would have raised issues (like higher rates or even cancel). I'm in the country; my neighbors have all retrofitted inside wood stoves years ago. Guessing that never got mentioned to their agents.

I have a Heatmaster dealer in the area; he gave me names of local customers I could talk to before building. What I learned was that the installation is everything! MANY systems I saw were installed by techs that clearly had no clue; each customer raved about the unit but had a laundry list of issues in the house (pm me if you ever want to know what NOT to do). My contractor found a specialist that had done many outdoor burner installs. After 8 years of use... the kid really did know his stuff. Find the right guy!

Our wood burner heats the basement floor, forced air, hot water, and the garage floor of our 2100 sq ft home. There are different quality levels of the lines that run from the burner. The lines recommended to us were $1k just for a 100' run! That made the decision NOT to feed our shed (500' away) pretty easy. A friend added radiant heat coils under the 1st floor of his new home just the year before our build. That alone added $20k to his costs. No need. The basement heated to 68 makes the 1st floor warm and the space comfy... the forced air takes it from there.

The first few years.... we moved wood to the burner and restacked. That got old fast. About year 3, I built 'pods' that allowed me to bring wood from storage to the burner using the tractor.

Built over pallet bases, each pod holds 1/4 cord and is sized so my compact tractor can lift. We use 8 cords in the coldest years. 32 pods were built. They have been a godsend. Each Spring when we process wood, 2 pods are set at a time at the splitter and get loaded ONCE. We also know exactly how much we need to finish. Adding runners to the bottom and laying treated 2x4's at the storage area gets the pallets off the ground and prolongs their life. The pods still look like new after 6 years and have had few repairs.

I could go on and on... hopefully someone will find these ramblings useful! Good luck!

 

[Oaktree]

Our wood burner heats the basement floor, forced air, hot water, and the garage floor of our 2100 sq ft home. There are different quality levels of the lines that run from the burner. The lines recommended to us were $1k just for a 100' run! That made the decision NOT to feed our shed (500' away) pretty easy. A friend added radiant heat coils under the 1st floor of his new home just the year before our build. That alone added $20k to his costs. No need. The basement heated to 68 makes the 1st floor warm and the space comfy... the forced air takes it from there.

The first few years.... we moved wood to the burner and restacked. That got old fast. About year 3, I built 'pods' that allowed me to bring wood from storage to the burner using the tractor.


Built over pallet bases, each pod holds 1/4 cord and is sized so my compact tractor can lift. We use 8 cords in the coldest years. 32 pods were built. They have been a godsend. Each Spring when we process wood, 2 pods are set at a time at the splitter and get loaded ONCE. We also know exactly how much we need to finish. Adding runners to the bottom and laying treated 2x4's at the storage area gets the pallets off the ground and prolongs their life. The pods still look like new after 6 years and have had few repairs.

I'm a little confused, do you have some sort of radiant heat or do you just rely on the heat from the basement rising to the living area? I suppose that could work if your basement is also living space, seems like it'd be wasted heat if it's just a basement.

Your "pod" method of transporting/storing firewood is interesting, but looks like a lot of work. Is it safe to assume that it's easy to transfer these pods from where you store them to somewhere easily accessible to the house? For me there'd be no easy way to do that in winter. I find it easier to just put this year's worth of wood in a shed near the house and leave the rest tarped out of the way at the edge of a field. It's maybe 8 pickup loads to fill the shed.

 

[ning]

I have a "reasonably efficient" (if I recall, about 90%?) propane furnace here - actually two, one for the downstairs and one for the upstairs; the downstairs doesn't get much human use any more so I keep that furnace set to 58 just in case. We also have a "built-in fireplace" - basically a zero-clearance fireplace insert that's built right into the wall. External combustion air and a blower system. The last few years I've kept that running 90% of the time in the winter and the upstairs furnace doesn't get used at all; my propane use is what I consider negligible (and includes the water heater) - about 3-400g/year. I'm burning about 2 cords (you know, the full 128cuft cords) a year and it appears I've decreased propane use by about 500g/year; actually didn't refill the tanks last year because so much was left. I've contemplated adding another wood stove downstairs, more for mood/aesthetic than anything substantial though it would provide a bit more independence from propane prices.

Similar to others here I enjoy cutting wood; I'm using ibc tote cages for a "stack once right where you split it", more or less, as we have a built-in wood box accessible from both the outside of the house and inside right next to the fireplace, so I get a wheelbarrow and bring it over and stack that in the wood box. I have a decent "income" of oak from by own land clearing & maintenance as well as stuff here and nearby that the electric utility cuts down to secure their overhead power lines. 10-20 years ago we were buying wood pre-split; that was probably more expensive than the propane at the time, but delivered seasoned split wood prices here have been flat in the last 20 years -- actually cheaper now than then considering inflation.

A future house of mine will likely feature a outside wood boiler unit as part of a resilient heating system. I don't know that I'd want to rely on it year in, year out, but how much you value your time may change depending on if you're employed...

 

[dadohead]

I'm a little confused, do you have some sort of radiant heat or do you just rely on the heat from the basement rising to the living area?

Let me elaborate. First, there is no 'wasted heat' with an outdoor woodburner. It makes so much energy that you point it where you want and use what you can. My point was this: putting coils in concrete is cheap compared to securing under/into the first floor. We have hardwood floors on the main floor as well so heating those areas is particularly sketchy. Yes, our basement is finished. Heated concrete does limit flooring choices. We have commercial vinyl/concrete in my wood shop. Keeping the basement warm very much helps on the main floor. It is heated with forced air (only the furnace fan runs though; a liquid-to-air heat exchanger in the plenum is hot 24/7 from the wood burner.) LP burners in the furnace kick on as backup.

Your "pod" method of transporting/storing firewood is interesting, but looks like a lot of work. Is it safe to assume that it's easy to transfer these pods from where you store them to somewhere easily accessible to the house?

The initial work of building the pods was noteworthy. I built 3/week; 32 in all at a cost of $500. The ability to move them to wherever the splitter is to process is huge. Sometimes that's in the woods if the tree is too big for me to skid. No biggy. We usually process in our front pasture where the log pile is. We also try and have all the pods filled before Easter to burn the following year. Seasoned wood keeps the burner running clean without issue. The pic above shows the pods as staged from the splitter but before being set for storage. That is about 100 yards from the burner. Our system uses two pods/week.

Yes, once a week I fire up the tractor, snag the rear forks, and swap out 2 pods. Compared to handling the wood like we used to.... IT IS EASY! ;<)