Need some home heating feedback: Wood boiler or fireplace insert?

[rbstern]

We run through about $1800 worth of propane a year in our 5 year old home: 2200 sq ft ranch, 75% finished basement, 2 propane furnaces, on demand propane hot water heater, propane stove/oven, propane starter fireplace. We also use the fireplace a fair amount. We keep the thermostat at 68 during colder months, 65 when no one is in the house (mostly business hours when we are at our home office...another house on the property).

The home office is an older (32 years) house, 1400 square feet, used as our home office and a guest space; has a wood burning stove that we use November - February, with a heat pump/propane furnace as a backup. That house uses about $600/year in propane ($ use based on roughly $2.75 - $3/gallon propane in recent years). Propane water heater (usually left on pilot only), propane stove/oven (rarely used).

Even though our wood use is modest, perhaps 1 to 1.5 cords per year, we are enjoying processing firewood. Last year, I bought a traditional firebox-styled smoker grill, as well as a Kamado style grill, and we're cooking a lot with our own firewood, and making lump charcoal for use in both grills. We've become firewood hobbyists, on a small scale. We have 62 acres, mostly wooded, mixed hardwood and pine, and a lot of trees to work with.

I'm thinking about whether or not a fireplace insert makes sense, or is even possible, in the new house. The fireplace is a prefab metal insert, so I don't even know what's possible. It's a larger fireplace, and I've read mixed comments about whether or not it can be adapted to an insert.

A smaller, outdoor wood boiler is also a possibility. It would be a big project, running lines to both houses (they are about 200 feet apart), but I have a backhoe on my tractor and could do most of the install.

I know either solution has a relatively short payback in propane savings, and we could enjoy warmer temps in both houses.

Looking for feedback on any aspect of this.

 

[CliffordK]

Fireplaces and stoves are most efficient with the doors closed and outside air intake. Do you have that on your new house? Plus air circulation?

You mention a boiler. Any chance that you already have the house set up for water based heat? In floor heat tubing?

I'd get some good pictures and drawings of your fireplace and contact a company like quadrafire, or whoever their local installers are and have them give you an opinion.

I haven't used an insert. I've been meaning to get one installed for a few years.

For smaller houses, a good wood stove can push out too much heat. But, you also have to be good at getting it stoked in the morning, and keeping a fire going while you're around the house.

 

[rbstern]

House seals up fairly well, and the fireplace does have an outside intake.

No on the water based heat, but I have open an truss floor system in the main residence, and it's a a short, straight shot to the mechanical room, thru the trusses, right past the hot water lines. The inside plumbing for heat exchangers for both furnaces and the hot water lines would probably be the easiest part of a boiler project. The 2nd house/home office: A bit more challenging.

Maintaining a fire wherever we happen to be is no problem. The wood stove in our office building is older, but easy to get fired up. It's the first item of business on cold mornings, and it keeps our office warm all day without much effort. The upstairs of that house warms from it as well.

The main house: Not comfortable leaving an unattended, open fire in the fireplace, both in terms of keeping it going all day, how little heat it injects to the house, and the challenge of maintaining it.

With a fireplace insert, I'd get it going before I tended to the animals, come back from that chore and fill it to run all day. Refuel it in the evening for the overnight.

If I knew we'd get into using firewood the way we are, I would have built the house with an insert. Hindsight...

 

[ericm979]

A lot of prefab fireplaces specifically disallow inserts. Check your manual. You may well have the wrong flue for a modern insert. They need high temp insulated flues.

Our prefab disallowed inserts and we had the wrong flue. We replaced it with an EPA zero clearance fireplace which is basically an insert with an extra layer around it so it can go right next to the studs. It was expensive but worth it. The stove cost less than the flue! But we have a tall house. The prefab fireplace was really terrible for heat and my wife hated the fake rock surround. Replacing that was more cost. If the room had been larger I'd have gone with a regular stove, and that would have cost less.

 

[EddieWalker]

First and by far the most important thing you have to do is make sure that you have enough insulation in your attic. Here in East Texas, Code was R45 for attic insulation. I think that changed this year, but I haven't looked into it to be sure. R30 is about a foot of blown in insulation, so R45 would be about a foot and a half. I personally have R60 in my attic, which is considered the most you can have before it's not doing anything.

In just about ever attic that I go in, you can see the tops of the 2x6 ceiling joists. Heat rises, so the more insulation that you have in the attic, the less energy you lose.

I personally like the Attic Cat insulation that they have at Home Depot. If you buy ten bags, the rental for the machine to spray it into your attic is free. Depending on the house, I usually buy two or three pallets of insulations, and return what I don't use when I return the machine. Attic Cat doesn't itch and you don't need a mask when spraying it. When done, your attic should look like fresh snow. But once it's done, you should NEVER go up there. Your attic must look like fresh snow for all eternity.

Wall insulation and windows only equate to a small part of the equation. House wrap to keep the wind out, and silicone around the windows does more to keep the energy inside the house then the insulation does. You need both, and most houses have plenty in their walls, but they also tend to have horrible air leaks around their windows.

As for your current insert, a picture would really help. Odds are that its going to be a big job to replace it, but it might be worthwhile. For my house, I went with a wood stove and I'm really glad that I did. It heats my entire house all winter long. We got down to 8F last week, and we stayed below freezing for 4 days. Three years ago we bottomed out at -12F, which is the coldest I've ever been in my life!!! and it remained below freezing for the entire week. The wood stove worked great, and actually made it kind of fun.

If I had a fireplace insert that wasn't putting out enough heat, I would think very hard on getting a wood stove instead of buying another insert.

 

[thclimer]

I don't there is any fire place insert that could compete with a wood stove for heat output.

 

[rbstern]

A lot of prefab fireplaces specifically disallow inserts. Check your manual. You may well have the wrong flue for a modern insert. They need high temp insulated flues.

Our prefab disallowed inserts and we had the wrong flue. We replaced it with an EPA zero clearance fireplace which is basically an insert with an extra layer around it so it can go right next to the studs. It was expensive but worth it. The stove cost less than the flue! But we have a tall house. The prefab fireplace was really terrible for heat and my wife hated the fake rock surround. Replacing that was more cost. If the room had been larger I'd have gone with a regular stove, and that would have cost less.

I usually save all documentation. Finding it is another matter...but I found the fireplace manual. Quote from the install maual:

B. Wood Burning Inserts

WARNING! Risk of Fire! Improper installation of wood inserts may cause fireplace or chimney system to overheat.If a wood burning insert is being installed in this fireplace,Hearth & Home Technologies recommends full reline ofthe chimney.

The wording certainly suggests that it's possible. If I go insert route, I'll have a pro company do the work. If they recommend replacement, so be it.

 

[rbstern]

First and by far the most important thing you have to do is make sure that you have enough insulation in your attic. Here in East Texas, Code was R45 for attic insulation. I think that changed this year, but I haven't looked into it to be sure. R30 is about a foot of blown in insulation, so R45 would be about a foot and a half. I personally have R60 in my attic, which is considered the most you can have before it's not doing anything.

In just about ever attic that I go in, you can see the tops of the 2x6 ceiling joists. Heat rises, so the more insulation that you have in the attic, the less energy you lose.

I personally like the Attic Cat insulation that they have at Home Depot. If you buy ten bags, the rental for the machine to spray it into your attic is free. Depending on the house, I usually buy two or three pallets of insulations, and return what I don't use when I return the machine. Attic Cat doesn't itch and you don't need a mask when spraying it. When done, your attic should look like fresh snow. But once it's done, you should NEVER go up there. Your attic must look like fresh snow for all eternity.

Wall insulation and windows only equate to a small part of the equation. House wrap to keep the wind out, and silicone around the windows does more to keep the energy inside the house then the insulation does. You need both, and most houses have plenty in their walls, but they also tend to have horrible air leaks around their windows.

As for your current insert, a picture would really help. Odds are that its going to be a big job to replace it, but it might be worthwhile. For my house, I went with a wood stove and I'm really glad that I did. It heats my entire house all winter long. We got down to 8F last week, and we stayed below freezing for 4 days. Three years ago we bottomed out at -12F, which is the coldest I've ever been in my life!!! and it remained below freezing for the entire week. The wood stove worked great, and actually made it kind of fun.

If I had a fireplace insert that wasn't putting out enough heat, I would think very hard on getting a wood stove instead of buying another insert.

Insulation: We foamed the roof. Most of the house sq. ft. is the great room, with high ceiling and no attic.

The existing fireplace isn't an insert. It's just a manufactured fireplace: A Heatilator I80.

 

[EddieWalker]

Did you use open of closed cell foam? How thick? A lot of spray foam companies will sell open cell because its easier and cheaper, but it doesn't have great R Value. It also holds water, so there is a big issue with the damage it causes to the roofing. Closed Cell is very expensive, and usually most people only go with 2 inches, which is only R14, give or take a bit. Then they fill the rest with fiberglass, or they just leave it and wonder why it's not working. Do you know what your R Value is for your ceiling?

 

[MossRoad]

We run through about $1800 worth of propane a year in our 5 year old home: 2200 sq ft ranch, 75% finished basement, 2 propane furnaces, on demand propane hot water heater, propane stove/oven, propane starter fireplace. We also use the fireplace a fair amount. We keep the thermostat at 68 during colder months, 65 when no one is in the house (mostly business hours when we are at our home office...another house on the property).

The home office is an older (32 years) house, 1400 square feet, used as our home office and a guest space; has a wood burning stove that we use November - February, with a heat pump/propane furnace as a backup. That house uses about $600/year in propane ($ use based on roughly $2.75 - $3/gallon propane in recent years). Propane water heater (usually left on pilot only), propane stove/oven (rarely used).

Even though our wood use is modest, perhaps 1 to 1.5 cords per year, we are enjoying processing firewood. Last year, I bought a traditional firebox-styled smoker grill, as well as a Kamado style grill, and we're cooking a lot with our own firewood, and making lump charcoal for use in both grills. We've become firewood hobbyists, on a small scale. We have 62 acres, mostly wooded, mixed hardwood and pine, and a lot of trees to work with.

I'm thinking about whether or not a fireplace insert makes sense, or is even possible, in the new house. The fireplace is a prefab metal insert, so I don't even know what's possible. It's a larger fireplace, and I've read mixed comments about whether or not it can be adapted to an insert.

A smaller, outdoor wood boiler is also a possibility. It would be a big project, running lines to both houses (they are about 200 feet apart), but I have a backhoe on my tractor and could do most of the install.

I know either solution has a relatively short payback in propane savings, and we could enjoy warmer temps in both houses.

Looking for feedback on any aspect of this.

We heat primarily with wood in the winter. We've been doing it for over 10 years. I love it.

However, with that said, it only pays off if you don't put a value on your time. It is a lot of work! It brings a lot of dirt and dust into the house, you have to haul ashes out (ours is only about every 3-4 weeks, but it still has to be done), and processing firewood takes time. I spend one day dropping trees, one day hauling them to the landing, 5 days sawing them into 16-18" pieces and hauling them home on the trailer, and 5 days splitting to get the 6 cords we use in the coldest winters. So at least 12 days a year doing firewood.

12days X 8hours = 96 hours.
96 hours X $20 an hour (what I value my time at) = $1920

I saved nothing.

Now add in the cost of saw, gas, tractor, trailer, splitter, stove or boiler, installation on top of the nothing you saved...

With that said, I enjoy the tasks involved in getting firewood, I'm outdoors, getting good exercise and cleaning up a lot of deadfall and/or nuisance trees. So it has great mental and physical benefits. Just don't believe it'll save you a lot of money IF you value your time. If you have plenty of time on your hands it's well worth it.

As for outdoor wood boilers.... be cautious of where you place it and the predominant winds. Can't count the number of times we've seen the smoke from a dampered-down outdoor boiler blowing right at a house, or a neighbor's house, or just across a road. Also, think about how many times you'll have to go outside to load it. Even on the nastiest of days, you'll still have to tend to it.