need to vent

[CurlyDave]

I would have preferred soldered connections and heat shrink instead of those blue crimp-on connectors...

I don't think you would have like the outcome with soldered connectors.

A long time (25 years) ago I worked for a company that made all sorts of specialized electrical connectors. what we found was that if we soldered any stranded wire on a vehicle (high vibration) the solder would wick down the strands for some distance and then stop. The end of the area where the solder wicked would cause a stress concentration and the wire would frequently fatigue and break right there. It would take a while, maybe several hundred hours of operation, but it would routinely happen.

Crimped connectors do not have this problem.

 

[N80]

I agree with those that say you should have asked for a price first. That was a pretty major goof up.

But, that does not excuse a dealer from giving you an estimate for the work or calling you to let you know how much it would run. So that's the first inexcusable act by the dealer. Really suspect in my opinion. On top of that, he clearly charged you too much. You were taken advantage off, pure and simple.

Having not asked for an estimate and having paid for the service, there is nothing you can do but enjoy your new lights. But I'd never go back, and I'd never refer anyone to him. If someone asked me about him, I wouldn't bad mouth him, I'd simply tell them your experience. He took advantage of you, got what he wanted in cash, but he should pay with his reputation.

 

[Rockyridge]

From the looks of the wiring you should able to turn the front and rear lights on and off independent of each other. If you can switch the front and rear independently, they must be using black wire as common to ground and using the white wire, which is normally the ground wire, for power to each set of lights. I am not an electrician but it is my understanding that white wire is ground and black or red is hot. Probably not a big deal, and apparently it works, but I would question why they did it that way.

 

[RickB]

I am not an electrician but it is my understanding that white wire is ground and black or red is hot.

Black is routinely used as a ground conductor color in direct current applications. Brown is often used if the machine is built in parts of Europe. Picking nits about insulation color choices is petty, if you ask me.
BTW, White is neutral, not ground, in AC wiring.

 

[blagg]

I ran a 10 guage wire, fused, from battery back to the cupholder remote handle area, mounted a relay and triggered the relay from the OEM light wires at the back of the seat. Mounted lights with premade "L" shaped brackets, drilled 2 holes for the switches, connected wires and mounted one backup light. Reinstalled plastic lever and cupholder housing in about 6 hours total. All wires were ran in loom and tied or clamped. 5 or so hours is not out of line. Dealer could of given you an idea of how much it cost.

 

[jaybrad]

It took me a few hours to do the lights on my tractor a couple weeks ago, but mostly because I'm slow and cautious.

I had a couple of similar brackets made at a machine shop for $5/each (they even painted them for me), the lights, wire, and connectors probably added another $50 - 60. The switch was about $10 at TSC. The fun factor in doing it myself one fine afternoon with a great classic rock station playing on the garage stereo: priceless.

All that said, seeing your installation gave me an idea for a modification I may try on mine.

Good luck talking with your dealer, it will be interesting to hear about their response.

Jay

 

[SnowRidge]

I would have preferred soldered connections and heat shrink instead of those blue crimp-on connectors...

I don't think you would have like the outcome with soldered connectors.

A long time (25 years) ago I worked for a company that made all sorts of specialized electrical connectors. what we found was that if we soldered any stranded wire on a vehicle (high vibration) the solder would wick down the strands for some distance and then stop. The end of the area where the solder wicked would cause a stress concentration and the wire would frequently fatigue and break right there. It would take a while, maybe several hundred hours of operation, but it would routinely happen.

Crimped connectors do not have this problem.

Crimp on connectors have a high failure rate. Crimped and wrapped (wire wrapped tightly around a square pin) connections have to be gas tight or they will fail. Unless high cost specialty tools are used by a knowledgeable person, the connections will not be gas tight, and random failures are pretty much guaranteed. Even professionally crimped or wrapped connections sometimes fail.

25 years ago I held a NASA soldering certification, which required me to attend a NASA certified soldering course. The reason for the certification program in a nutshell: Properly soldered connections don't fail in a high vibration and/or high vacuum environment. Properly soldered connections do not have solder wicking away from the joint.

I used to own a seagoing diesel powered boat. The wiring was trash. The absolute worst environment I know of for wiring is the bilge of a seagoing vessel. Think vibrating salt water spray bath. I replaced all the DC wiring, soldering all the connections. I covered each soldered connection with liquid vinyl, followed by heat shrink tubing. Not a single one of those connections ever failed.

I have a cargo trailer than came with crimp on connectors. They failed early on. I rewired it and added electric brakes while I was at it, using the same techniques as the I used on the boat. Not a single connection has failed since.

I have an equipment trailer that came with crimp on connectors. They failed right away, causing the loss of brakes on one axle. High on my project list is the complete rewiring of that trailer. Every connection will be soldered.

Years of experience have taught me that even properly crimped or wrapped terminals will fail if they are not carrying current most of the time. There is something about the constant movement of electrons between the two surfaces that helps keep the interface from oxidizing. I have talked to a number of people that have observed this effect.

In situations where circuits will be switched off the majority of the time, properly soldered connections are the only absolute protection against interface oxidation.

The only downside to soldering is the extra time it takes. It is usually well worth it.

 

[N80]

I'm not an electrician (electricity is voodoo to me). But I can solder (poorly) and I have wired numerous RC trucks. These work better than anything I've ever found. Vibration, nor even collisions at 20-30mph have ever caused one to come apart. No soldering. They do require a special tool. They aren't cheap.

Here is the website for them. They are also sold (at higher prices) at hobby stores.

Standard Powerpole Family

 

[Travelover]

I'd second the preference for soldering. I used to work in a rental shop and the trailer lights were a nightmare to keep working where the roads are salted in winter. I soldered all the connections, including the ground wire to the frame and that ended the problems, except at the bulb contacts, on occasion.

If I was the OP, I'd be disappointed at the cost, as well. Granted he should have asked for an estimate in advance, but $500 for labor is excessive for a simple job like this.

 

[LRH]

I don't know if i should tell you this but the lights are on the wrong way.
The dealer should know that.
The beam on that kind of light should go right to left not up and down.
If he was going to place them sideways they should be round lights. Why would you want a beam 10 feet up in the air and 4 ft wide, I could be wrong so try it at night. I would mount them on the top of the rops
use the same bracket just put the bracket on the bottom of the top rop, the lights will be the right way and it would look better. Put the bracket on the bottom and the light on each side of the rops wires down.
That is a two/3 hr job .

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I agree with WaxMan about the lamp orientation; if they are floods 20x80, 30x70, etc; you will get a tall, narrow beam, but nothing like a fog lamp turned sideways. If they are a trapezoid pattern, you will also get a strange pattern, but the lenses (or sealed beams) can most likely be turned 180 degrees to get the best pattern. As for price; I guess you should have asked, since some dealers do have customers where time is the most important thing, so the attitude is "fix it, and call me when it is ready"; but a rough estimate would have been nice.
About the only thing that would be complaint worthy might be the electrical work @ a higher hourly rate, most electrical work is higher because more time is spent diagnosing/troubleshooting ect without results, such as digging behind dash panels, behind access panels, underneath the shields/guards etc to repair factory installed wiring/switches/modules, while in some cases referring to factory wiring schematics for help, whereas adding some aftermarket lamps/switches even though it is electrical in nature is not really like chasing down problems in complicated, difficult to get to factory wiring.

 

[RichM96067]

I went to the Dodge dealer and bought my Ram with the Cummins deisel.
I went to the BMW dealer and bought my motorcycle.
I went to the Yamaha dealer and bought a scooter.
I went to the Kubota dealer and bought my L3400.
The only time I ever go back to the "dealer" is in case of a recall or for warranty work.
If I am not able to do the work, I can always find someone capable other than the "dealer".

 

[jaybrad]

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About the only thing that would be complaint worthy might be the electrical work @ a higher hourly rate, most electrical work is higher because more time is spent diagnosing/troubleshooting ect without results, such as digging behind dash panels, behind access panels, underneath the shields/guards etc to repair factory installed wiring/switches/modules, while in some cases referring to factory wiring schematics for help, whereas adding some aftermarket lamps/switches even though it is electrical in nature is not really like chasing down problems in complicated, difficult to get to factory wiring.

I'm having a hard time understanding why electrical work would have a higher rate.

If you are paying an hourly rate based upon time spend doing a job (as opposed to those lovely flat rate books that some dealers use to figure out how to take advantage of your wallet), what difference does it make if they are making brackets, or running wires.

They are getting paid based upon the number of hours they work. It's not like they are entitled to a hazardous duty stipend on top of their already steep hourly rate.

Something just doesn't sound right to me. What am I missing?

Jay

 

[SnowRidge]

Mechanics who can do good electrical work get paid more, in theory, so the shop's labor rate is higher for that kind of work.

 

[jaybrad]

Mechanics who can do good electrical work get paid more, in theory, so the shop's labor rate is higher for that kind of work.

Interesting.

Following that logic, do they have a lower hourly shop rate for a newbie mechanic who isn't as experienced as one of the long timers?

I've heard that argument offered in defense of those flat rate books that those rates level the playing field so that the customer isn't penalized by an inexperienced mechanic, yet the good ones reap higher pay because they can bill for more hours of work than they actually deliver.

It still doesn't seem right to me that they would charge a higher rate to run a few 12v wires to a simple switch, or two. It's not like they are wiring a space shuttle.

Jay

 

[SnowRidge]

"It still doesn't seem right to me that they would charge a higher rate to run a few 12v wires to a simple switch, or two. It's not like they are wiring a space shuttle."

Can't say I disagree with that.

 

[WarrenF]

I really think your objections are unfounded. First of all you did not ask for an estimate. That is your fault. Second, you obviously did not feel competent to do the job yourself. Third, you want to tell a business what is a fair price when you did not ask???

I get really tired of "consumers" trying to tell me as a small service business what my price should be. Add it up, when you have costs of heating and cooling a shop....paying the demanded "benefits" package for employees.....paying the continual training for their employees....paying the insurance so consumer who slip and fall on your lot will not have to take responsibility for their stupidity....paying the electrical bill....etc.. You now have substantial money being paid, so you can get your tractor fancied up because you won't do it yourself.

I bought a washer and dryer from Sears. They charged me $50.00 to deliver the purchase less than fifty miles. I had a plumber come out and fix the sewer at my rental unit....cost me $550 dollars for less than three hours of work. But now you think that $75.00 an hour is tooooooo much when you could have done it yourself? I quite frankly think that $75.00 an hour is too little for a shop to charge.

What do you suppose the dealer made off of you when you purchased your tractor? Do you honestly think that the dealer shoiuld be there to not make anything when he sells you the tractor and then provide you with FREE SERVICE??? Some of you should actually have to operate a business. You would then see how truly expensive it is and how tough it is to make money. Then you have people like some of you who bellyache about the cost of things, and yet turn right around and vote more taxes on business because it sounds soooo good to get those greedy slobs. When will some of you learn, you pay for everything you have voted for and you pay for everything you ask for.....pull up your big boy panties and move on. You got a good deal.

 

[WarrenF]

Interesting.

Following that logic, do they have a lower hourly shop rate for a newbie mechanic who isn't as experienced as one of the long timers?

I've heard that argument offered in defense of those flat rate books that those rates level the playing field so that the customer isn't penalized by an inexperienced mechanic, yet the good ones reap higher pay because they can bill for more hours of work than they actually deliver.

It still doesn't seem right to me that they would charge a higher rate to run a few 12v wires to a simple switch, or two. It's not like they are wiring a space shuttle.

Jay

Don't you suppose that should he have asked for an estimate first of all....this might have been prevented. Where is it written that the stupidity of a consumer must be protected. The price is the price.....he did not ask....he apparently felt incompetent to do the work himself.....and now he doesn't want to pay for his incompetence. What the **** are we coming to. A consumer buys something and then after the fact ******* that he paid too much....so now we establish a cabinet department to protect consumers from themselve.

 

[89cummins174]

maybe you have the same @&%tY BISNESS practices as my dealer. i didnt incompetent to do the work. i've had a pa inseption cer and used to work on cars and trucks. left it, not enough money in it, shop onwer reps the benifits not the employess. your rite warren, i bitched out and didnt do the work. never had a warrenty would like to keep it for another year. you all know how funny dealers. they like ****ing the little guy. 5 hours of work for them, that 40 HOURS for me. kind of get why i am a little pissed?????

 

[89cummins174]

alright i didnt mean to take it out on on you. this is just a touchy subject right now for me. you guy on this site are the best source to fix my tractor and i dont want to tick you guys off. since i plan on not taking my bx back to the dealer anymore i am going to learn more the in and outs a little more. sorry if i offened any one, thanks for all your help

 

[jaybrad]

Don't you suppose that should he have asked for an estimate first of all....this might have been prevented. Where is it written that the stupidity of a consumer must be protected. The price is the price.....he did not ask....he apparently felt incompetent to do the work himself.....and now he doesn't want to pay for his incompetence. What the **** are we coming to. A consumer buys something and then after the fact ******* that he paid too much....so now we establish a cabinet department to protect consumers from themselve.

The issue of an estimate, or not, is not the issue I was questioning.

I simply don't understand why there would be 2 different hourly rates applied to a job like this. It didn't require an EE degree to do this job - and I would submit that rebuilding an engine or transmission would require higher cognitive and psychomotor skills than running a couple 12v lines.

If I understood the original post, there was a premium hourly rate for doing this "electrical" work. That is the issue I don't understand.

Jay