need to vent

[ray66v]

I spent 30 years in the auto body repair business. Its a bad business practice for both, the customer and the shop, to not discuss the labor rates, and have an understanding of at least basically, what a job is going to cost, before hand. This is possible even with custom work.

Doing otherwise, almost always leads to hard feelings, and unhappy customers.

It's no longer a world where you can assume how much things cost. Overhead costs for businesses are at an all time high. They might seem to be getting rich. But, look what some have invested, and consider what it cost them to just unlock the door, and turn on the lights everyday, (its probably about 5x what you think). They will probably tell you how much, if you ask.

I have a friend that owns a county wide ambulance service. He charges $550 for a ride to the hospital. OUTRAGEOUS! right? Except he only ends up collecting anything 55% of the time. 45% never pay. His insurance is over $3000 per day. (That's ten rides per day, just to pay for the insurance). Then there's of course payroll, mortgages, vehicle payments, vehicle fuel costs, gas & electric, uniforms, benefits, linens, maintenance, property taxes, Ongoing training, and legal expenses. Next thing you know, $550 is not even enough to keep the doors open.

I am not defending this dealer, The service manager, (likely perpetrator here), is a poor businessman. I am just trying to explain, for the benefit of those who do not have the experience of being in business, of what it costs, to produce goods and services.

Two basic rules to do business by:

Rule #1 ALWAYS get an estimate.

Rule #2 NEVER pay up front for a job; pay when its done, as agreed. (A reasonable deposit, with a reputable company, to show good faith is ok).

 

[blagg]

As i've said before, "a business that keeps 3 cents for every dollar earned is doing very well".

 

[jaybrad]

I have a friend that owns a county wide ambulance service. He charges $550 for a ride to the hospital. OUTRAGEOUS! right? Except he only ends up collecting anything 55% of the time. 45% never pay. His insurance is over $3000 per day. (That's ten rides per day, just to pay for the insurance). Then there's of course payroll, mortgages, vehicle payments, vehicle fuel costs, gas & electric, uniforms, benefits, linens, maintenance, property taxes, Ongoing training, and legal expenses. Next thing you know, $550 is not even enough to keep the doors open.

Not to sidetrack the thread, but having some experience in emergency medical services, I can tell you that $550 is a bargain. Add in cardiac monitoring, medications, etc. and it gets a lot more expensive, very fast - and you don't even want to get into what a medical helicopter ride costs - 10x that, easily!

You make a very good point about the cost of doing business - and how surprisingly expensive it is. The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence - and especially when the economy is tanking and we are all more careful about how/where we spend our "hard earned".

 

[WaxMan]

Well i know that i have not posted lot but, i need to get this off my chest and maybe you have some horrier stories to tell. this morning i droped my bx24 off at my local kubota dealer (bucks county, Pa) to have 4 flood lights put on becuase i thought they would already know the best route to run the wiresso they dont get snag on anything. So I head up to the dealer at 4 to pick up my tractor smile on my face and then they hit me with the total. 556 dollars for 5 1/2 hours of work. They had to make the brakets but i suppled the lights and they had the rest of the switches wire and fuses.

What I am getting at is i thought I could truss my dealer to take care of me not take a weeks wofth of pay away from me. the work they did was good but didn't know that their lowest rate was 75 a hour and the electrical work per hour was more. This is the last time they will lay a finger on my tractor!!

Thanks for reading

I have a Dealer/repairer license and own a small 6 bay garage working on cars with just five employees. We are required by law to give the customer a written estimate before any repairs are made. That is to protect the customer from getting ripped off . If we work on your car without an estimate and the customer complained we would not be able to charge the customer at all and it would be for free. That is the law in my state. Electrical work is more when trying to locate a short somewhere, that can take hours to find and repair. This light install isn't electrical troubleshooting.

But being in this business since 1976 and then my own in 1984 to date I have to tell you over five hours is too much for what I see and know from what you told us. I could see if they had to fish the wires up inside the ROPS but they just zip tied the wires and mounted the lights wrong in my opinion. If it did take that much time the dealer should have ate the extra waste of time for some reason or another, for all we know the mechanic could have came in with a hangover that day (for all we know). Yes the dealer has expenses and no one knows that more then me. But don't make this guy pay extra for what I think is a shoddy job for the price you paid in my professional opinion. But on this site by some you are being blamed for not getting the estimate first, and the fact that you over paid is lost in the posts. I'll bet if you did ask for an estimate they would have said 300.00 tops. To be fair, let's keep in mind that the customer, myself, and all others on this site do not know the exact details of the whole situation, so let's just not jump to conclusions. You see how it's done now just move the lights up to the top splice in the extra wire get other wire wrap to cover the splice , unless you like the lights that way some people do I guess. You could call the dealer and say your not happy and if it was me the dealer I would do what ever was needed to make you happy since your one job almost covered the employee salary for the week. Because nothing is more important then a return customer, when its slow and all the guys are standing around he'll wish he had you as a customer.

 

[blagg]

Well put Waxman, I've been in the repair business for 26 years, keep your customer happy, he'll always come back and refer others. If your unhappy, by all means say something to your dealer, It doesnt hurt. I have completed jobs in a certain amount of time and had greedy service writers add time just because.

 

[samofsweden]

Well i know that i have not posted lot but, i need to get this off my chest and maybe you have some horrier stories to tell. this morning i droped my bx24 off at my local kubota dealer (bucks county, Pa) to have 4 flood lights put on becuase i thought they would already know the best route to run the wiresso they dont get snag on anything. So I head up to the dealer at 4 to pick up my tractor smile on my face and then they hit me with the total. 556 dollars for 5 1/2 hours of work. They had to make the brakets but i suppled the lights and they had the rest of the switches wire and fuses.

What I am getting at is i thought I could truss my dealer to take care of me not take a weeks wofth of pay away from me. the work they did was good but didn't know that their lowest rate was 75 a hour and the electrical work per hour was more. This is the last time they will lay a finger on my tractor!!

Thanks for reading

Sorry to say this, but thats price sounds like a normal price. To make brackets, rute new wires, new fuse box, switches, including the 4 light and workers. And you was happy with the work! Put this way, its alot of money yes, but its not alot of money for that kind of work.

I think if you are happy with your lights installation be happy! Next time you ask your dealer if he can estimate what the cost would.
Good luck with your work lights!
P.S my light installation costed 2000 dollars, so your installation was cheap

 

[Singlecoil]

I wouldn't be happy with that installation job. It just doesn't look right to have those connections exposed like that. I would have liked to at least seen a waterproof junction box at the top near the lights with the connections inside of that. Routing the wires inside the rops wouldn't be that hard either.

 

[WarrenF]

maybe you have the same @&%tY BISNESS practices as my dealer. i didnt incompetent to do the work. i've had a pa inseption cer and used to work on cars and trucks. left it, not enough money in it, shop onwer reps the benifits not the employess. your rite warren, i bitched out and didnt do the work. never had a warrenty would like to keep it for another year. you all know how funny dealers. they like ****ing the little guy. 5 hours of work for them, that 40 HOURS for me. kind of get why i am a little pissed?????

Sorry you are so upset at me....but that is okay. I have big shoulders and am too old, too fat, and too ugly to take anything personal. If I understood your post to me when you were angry....I take it that you have been a mechanic. I have bolded the part in your post that I am guessing suggests that. I also see that you left because you could not make enough money at it.

Now stop and take a deep breath and think with me. Could the reason there was not enough money is because the shop owners were not charging a high enough shop rate? That is my point!! Perhaps your dealer is really trying to make sure that he KEEPS his mechanics and pays them a living wage.

Stop this thinking that everyone is out to "get the little guy." Perhaps just perhaps they are the little guy and they are simply trying to survive.

 

[N80]

Not asking for an estimate is not a crime nor is it a free pass to charge as much as a dealer wants. If this shop just waits for someone not to ask for an estimate to yank the price up, then they are predators and do not deserve anyone's respect, referrals or return business.

The shop charged too much for this job, even if it had been done well. But it appears that they did not even do it well. It was a rip off.

I wonder how his mechanics are going to earn a living wage when their reputation is so bad for both the quality of work and price that no one will do business with them.

If the work is sub par, I'd at least make them take it to a reasonable level of quality. Then I'd never go back.

 

[shvl73]

including the 4 light

If I read it correctly, he had already paid for the lights.

 

[grossgary]

Not asking for an estimate is not a crime nor is it a free pass to charge as much as a dealer wants. If this shop just waits for someone not to ask for an estimate to yank the price up, then they are predators and do not deserve anyone's respect, referrals or return business.

The shop charged too much for this job, even if it had been done well. But it appears that they did not even do it well. It was a rip off.

i agree

the issue is whether it's a fair price or not. i and others think it's high so there's reasonable case to talk to the shop about this. i'd at least have a civil discussion about it and see what their reaction is.

if i took my tractor in and it needed a new HST and i didn't ask for a price i'd think they should bring it up (even if i didn't ask). if i take it in for a missing 50 cent bolt they wouldn't ask and i'd be fine with that. somewhere in between lies a floating value depending on the individual. the dealer is the professional here, they should act like it. (i've owned my own business).

if they're going to charge top dollar then i'd expect top dollar treatment - nice store, receipts, accept credit card, know to give an estimate before the job, ask questions, find customers needs. don't charge me top dollar and give me shade tree service and try to jack me around.

it's not like this is the first time they've had a job that might be construed as more expensive than the customer thought...this is like a weekly occurrence, a good business does something about that, not points fingers at the customer.

 

[ray66v]

Not asking for a price is, exactly how this happened. Your idea of a fair, price and the service provider's idea will still differ. Let's say, (for discussion purposes), we all agree that $300 is a fair price for this job, some would still think that's way too high. A simple 60 second conversation, to make sure everyone is on the same page, completely eliminates the problem.

I never have this problem. Because, I won't get within a mile of a job until we both have some kind of understanding.

Its not 1950 anymore, life has gotten complicated, repair costs are high. Even repairers are often shocked at today's prices .

As a matter of simple good business practice, you have to ask, and they, (if their smart), should offer a price. Anything less, is begging for trouble.

 

[gemini5362]

I would have preferred soldered connections and heat shrink instead of those blue crimp-on connectors...

I don't think you would have like the outcome with soldered connectors.

A long time (25 years) ago I worked for a company that made all sorts of specialized electrical connectors. what we found was that if we soldered any stranded wire on a vehicle (high vibration) the solder would wick down the strands for some distance and then stop. The end of the area where the solder wicked would cause a stress concentration and the wire would frequently fatigue and break right there. It would take a while, maybe several hundred hours of operation, but it would routinely happen.

Crimped connectors do not have this problem.

Actually I used to work for a company that routinely soldered wires to the most sophisticated electronics you could mention. There equipment had more vibration in a few seconds of operation than a tractor would have in years and years and years of operation. You might have heard of them. NASA ? There are ways to keep solder from wicking down the wire.

 

[gemini5362]

From the looks of the wiring you should able to turn the front and rear lights on and off independent of each other. If you can switch the front and rear independently, they must be using black wire as common to ground and using the white wire, which is normally the ground wire, for power to each set of lights. I am not an electrician but it is my understanding that white wire is ground and black or red is hot. Probably not a big deal, and apparently it works, but I would question why they did it that way.

Depends on what you are wireing while you are right for house wireing. In my experience house wireing is almost the only thing that uses that color combination. And also white is not the ground it is the neutral. On most electronics and that includes vehicles black is usually used as the ground.

 

[N80]

As a matter of simple good business practice, you have to ask, and they, (if their smart), should offer a price. Anything less, is begging for trouble.

I wouldn't do business in a place where an oversight on the part of the customer is begging for trouble from the business.

 

[gemini5362]

Crimp on connectors have a high failure rate. Crimped and wrapped (wire wrapped tightly around a square pin) connections have to be gas tight or they will fail. Unless high cost specialty tools are used by a knowledgeable person, the connections will not be gas tight, and random failures are pretty much guaranteed. Even professionally crimped or wrapped connections sometimes fail.

25 years ago I held a NASA soldering certification, which required me to attend a NASA certified soldering course. The reason for the certification program in a nutshell: Properly soldered connections don't fail in a high vibration and/or high vacuum environment. Properly soldered connections do not have solder wicking away from the joint.

I used to own a seagoing diesel powered boat. The wiring was trash. The absolute worst environment I know of for wiring is the bilge of a seagoing vessel. Think vibrating salt water spray bath. I replaced all the DC wiring, soldering all the connections. I covered each soldered connection with liquid vinyl, followed by heat shrink tubing. Not a single one of those connections ever failed.

I have a cargo trailer than came with crimp on connectors. They failed early on. I rewired it and added electric brakes while I was at it, using the same techniques as the I used on the boat. Not a single connection has failed since.

I have an equipment trailer that came with crimp on connectors. They failed right away, causing the loss of brakes on one axle. High on my project list is the complete rewiring of that trailer. Every connection will be soldered.

Years of experience have taught me that even properly crimped or wrapped terminals will fail if they are not carrying current most of the time. There is something about the constant movement of electrons between the two surfaces that helps keep the interface from oxidizing. I have talked to a number of people that have observed this effect.

In situations where circuits will be switched off the majority of the time, properly soldered connections are the only absolute protection against interface oxidation.

The only downside to soldering is the extra time it takes. It is usually well worth it.

I started making comments without reading all the posts first. It is interesting to read about others with NASA certification. I agree with what you read 100 per cent. I have seen a product that gives the best of both worlds. When I was doing Navy electronic equipment installation we used a crimp on connector. You crimped in in place and it had a circle of solder on the inside of the connection. When you got it crimped you took a high output heat gun and heated the crimp. That melted the solder which then soldered the wires inside the crimp. Those worked very well.

 

[CurlyDave]

I have built a few things for NASA, and for "other" branches of the US Government. A fair amount of it is still on orbit.

I recognize the possibility of a soldered connection which is not subject to the usual problems of solder wicking and vibration sensitivity. OTOH, if you really think you are going to find NASA-certified technicians and techniques in your average tractor repair shop I would like you to send me some of that stuff you have been smoking -- it is pretty powerful.

If you really want to solder stranded wire for your tractor at home, strain relieve it with more than one piece of heat shrink, which extend about 3" beyond the joint on each side for the first piece and maybe 2.5" for the second one. I have never seen a shop do anything close to this.

 

[ray66v]

I wouldn't do business in a place where an oversight on the part of the customer is begging for trouble from the business.

My point was, that the business can actually not be taking advantage of the customer, but it can still appear they are to many people. That's trouble. And if you refuse to do anything to avoid this, your begging for it to happen.

Some people are so unreasonable in a situation like this, you can give them the job for free, to try and make them happy, and they will still tell everyone you tried to cheat them. Even if you never did. I have seen this happen.

There are also people out there, that are genuinely not well mentally. Both sides need to protect themself's, from them, before the transaction develops into this kind of a situation. I have also seen this happen.

Not asking for a price, especially when potentially, lots of money is involved, is not an "oversight" on either side, its a result of poor business practices that often leads right to where this transaction is now.

 

[N80]

Doesn't sound like the customer in question has been unreasonable at all. So this has no bearing on this discussion. Nor does there appear to be any chance that the price stated was not an example of being ripped off. It was. It is obviously too high for the job that was done and it was far to high for the quality of the job was done. So in this case, there is no room for what ifs or theoretical problems. He got ripped off.