Neighbor plans to discharge standing water into creek

[coldsteelva]

Poor Fred - I have never seen water drain uphill

 

[LD1]

I agree with others that say you need to talk to Fred.

What he is proposing doing.....is nothing that isnt done around here all the time to drain wet areas and make the land usable again. I have put miles of tile in the ground in the many acres of fields around here. The goal is dry usable land. And you simply have to find an outlet.

Most of the waterways / sodways around here, at some point in time find their way to a seasonal creek where they outlet. Its just how its done. The water has to go somewhere. And in many cases around here years ago, easements and stuff were established to allow one farmer to tile across neighboring properties to find an outlet.

The notion that you feel Fred should have talked to you about this even though he is not doing anything on your property is what I find absurd. At what point do we draw the line? Should fred talk to the neighbor below you? Or below them? or a mile down stream? Who will all be impacted by a little more water flow?

IF this were NOT a wetland, I'd say you dont have a leg to stand on and tough luck.

But since this is a wetland that may be your saving grace. You would be doing Fred a favor if you mention this to him. If you dont, and he proceeds, then you cause a big legal headache for him about it being wetlands and he finds out you knew all this before he did anything but just bit your tongue.....say good bye to any civil neighborly relations going forward. Knowing its a wetland, he may just forget about his plans and leave it as is. Or he may still decide to go through the proper channels and permits and get it drained. In which case....you still dont have a leg to stand on.

But if I was in your shoes, and a neighbor had an un-usable piece of property and wanted to make it usable again, But the area deemed wetlands....I'd just tell him do what you need to do Im not gonna say a word to anyone. Because I am not a fan of our current wetlands laws and strict regulations. I mean for crying out loud, a neighbor has a small wet area in his hard and he wants to make his place look nice and get rid of the mosquito breeding cesspool.....but oh wait.....big brother says you cant because you might kill a few toads and insects and their lives matter too.

 

[Creamer]

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned the local county surveyor. In two of the states I have lived in that is the local official that is in charge of drainage and it is a big issue for them. Changing the timing of water flows can have a big effect on how the entire area handles its drainage. Furthermore the Surveyor is the person in charge of knowing the laws and legal parameters and can advise for free on what your and Fred's options are. In our area for an excavator to add a new drainage tile would require a permit so that the County Surveyor knows what is happening and can check it out beforehand.

Normally your "seasonal creek" is the drainage for this area but the other side of it is that Fred's low area is retaining water it is keeping water from flowing at a time when the there are other sources of water and the drainage tile system would delay the retained water from the creek and therefore minimize flooding. If Fred is already a drainage ditch tax tax that your seasonal creek feeds into then he may be entitled to drain his property into the "seasonal creek". The harder part is figuring out the path for the tile if it has to go across Bob's land since he will need an easement.

The bottom line is that surveyor should be your first point of contact. If this can all be worked out a local level it is much easier than getting the state and federal involved in it - you may not like the results as they may put more controls on your property.

 

[CobyRupert]

I caught Bob yesterday as he was raking leaves and asked him if Fred ever spoke to him about a plan to drain standing water from his (Fred's) land across Bob's land and into the creek that traverses my property. Bob said Fred approached him months ago and ran the idea by him. At that time Bob never committed either way to allowing excavation on his property. In a nutshell, I told Bob that the heavy equipment operator may someday ask for permission to work on his land and that I wouldn't be happy about any plan to divert water into a creek that already overflows its banks (onto my primary horse pasture and 50 feet from my septic drain field) during heavy rainfall. I also alerted Bob to the fact that the area in question, both his property and Fred's, is deemed wetland by US Fish & Wildlife and can be readily identified on the Wetlands Inventory map. Bob was surprised to learn of the wetland designation. He got the message. I will also talk to Fred when I see him.

The attached map is taken directly from US Fish & Wildlife Wetland Inventory. The wetland areas are shaded green. The creek, which I drew, is blue and the area that Fred hopes to drain is encircled in orange (stripes).

I still don't see how Fred draining his swamp effects you. When it rains, or snow melts, water is still going to flow downhill whether or not there's an intermediate swamp.

Right now, when the ground is saturated (i.e. water is flowing on the surface) and Mother Nature pours 100,000 gallons into the swamp, doesn't 100,000 gallons flow out of the swamp into your creek? If the swamp is ditched and Mother Nature pours 100,000 gallons into the former swamp area, you still have 100,000 gallons going into your creek?

In=out. Example: If you remove a dam (and the lake/reservoir behind it) from a river, the same amount of water still comes down the river.
As other say, worry about the blockages downstream that back water onto your property.

 

[MossRoad]

That's a pretty coarse tops map with 20' contour lines.

Here's a link to one with 5' contour lines.

TNM Download

 

[kthompson]

Let me ask a question here, you buy a house on a piece of land and live there for say twenty years and all is good. Then a mine goes in up stream from you and pumps an amount of water daily to flood your house, is that okay? Or say a large land owner digs a ditch to your property line and just stops pushing the water onto you damaging your house, is that okay? We live in swamp and branch country. Not far from one to another and it is my understanding if you do something to increase the flow of the water to where it does damage you are liable. Had a small subdivision go in across the road from us and the ditching that would be handling the water was required to be cleaned to accommodate the projected increase flow.

I was the one who went to the new owner and advised him of the issue of flooding and there was legal requirement for improved drainage before the property could be developed. Did so in being a friend and he took it that way. The previous owner who sold him the property knew all this and not only did not advise him of it but the property was marketed as being suitable for houses. The previous owner was who was blocking the needed drainage work done but when he was confronted on the need and he had sold it saying it was suitable for houses he found it was best to agree with the work.

Trying to say, great communication and cooperation between the owners is by far the best but if there is one who cares nothing about the damage they inflict upon another then you must protect your property if needed, legally. One of the best way to prevent problems is to become friends when all is good and stay in touch. On this case, is it possible the drainage being discussed could extend across your property to help it also drain better? Hope all can come together for the benefit of all.

 

[citytransplant]

To those who feel this situation is not a big deal - time will tell.

Yes oosick, time has told.

It has been about 1 year now since the backhoe guy while burying one of our horses notified me that Fred, living 2 doors away, spoke to him about draining a small (< 1 acre) patch of Fred's land (he owns 20 acres). If completed, standing water on Fred's land would drain into a seasonal creek that traverses my property. After some research, I learned that his wet property is federally protected wetland.

For almost 12 years prior to my original post, I'd see Fred regularly. He would ride his bicycle past our barn often and stop at the fence to chat about farm stuff with my wife. I figured I'd have a talk with him about his plans at some point after my original post, yet weeks went by and I saw neither hide nor hair of Fred. When winter came, I assumed he traveled down south and I'd be sure to discuss this topic when he returned in the spring. Spring came, no Fred.

I was saddened to learn just last week that Fred has a serious (terminal?) illness and had not been sunning himself in Florida but instead has been holed up in his bedroom for many months now. I sincerely hope he recovers. While we rarely spoke, he and my wife have had many a good laugh over the years as he would often ride by our farm on his bicycle and stop to chat with her at the fence. I'd hate to lose him as a neighbor, my wife moreso.

Some very interesting perspectives were shared on this thread and I thank those who contributed. I will post again should Fred recover and this issue be resurrected.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

Thanks for the update, prayers for fred.

 

[Creamer]

Thanks for the update, prayers for fred.

Amen!