New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC

   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #11  
Dadnatron Japody... we are likely to have similar climates. We are about 5deg cooler than you most of the year. When you installed... how did you choose and why Bosch? Most things I read is to 'go Water Furnace'.[/QUOTE said:
In doing research, I found Bosch to be overly engineered. Since we are located in a rural area, with no geo contractors nearby, we felt better with this engineered facet. Water Furnace would have been my second choice. Square footage is similar to yours. Our bill for our all electric house, with the thermostat at 74, was $175 last month. That was during the cold snap.
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #12  
2 Story colonial style house built in 2010, ~4000 sq ft if you include basement area (insulated & heated), 2700 above ground. Water Furnace system installed at that time using it's own well (top of system is buried 5' below ground, few feet above water level in our area).
For ease of comparison, our average power usage in summer is 15KWh/day, rising to 35KWh/day in winter - really cold snaps (below -25 daytime temps with high winds) as high as 50KWh/day. Power usage includes all utilities - lights, pump, stove, geothermal, etc.
No issues, to date, with system. Just keep the filters clean.
Would do it again - most comfortable heating system we've ever had. Quiet, extremely stable temperature control, no fuss/no mess,
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #13  
I've had a ground source Water Furnace for 3 trouble free years. The initial cost was eye popping even after the federal and N.Y. State credits but I was up for a new oil furnace as a backup anyway and was getting too old to make 6 or 7 cords of wood annually. Natural gas was unavailable. Electric bills have increased as the geo system runs pumps, a condenser and blower but the increase in electric is maybe $100 per month in winter. I can live with that. At present the wholesale price of natural gas and propane is historically low with shale gas and fracking, this should keep the price for gas from kiting in the future but who knows.
You have to do an analysis containing your cost of piping gas a long distance, amortization of a geo system, the cost of a high efficiency gas furnace, heat pump AC, and probably cooking and fireplace with LP. My guess would be that geo and LP would come out on top over the long run.
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #14  
I have two geothermal pumps heating my three buildings but if natural gas was available I would not have done it as the upfront costs were substantial. Nice that I can run the water to air pump in the house in summer for AC, but you could just as easily add central air to your NG furnace. The USA will not run short of NG in your lifetime so cost wise it is an easy decision.
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #15  
I implore you to check out the new high efficiency heat pumps with gas backup. We just constructed a 2 million dollar clinic (April 2017) and that is exactly what the engineers built for our facility. We have Trane high efficiency heat pumps with gas backup. Being commercial we went with natural gas backup, but for homeowner avoiding those recurring minimum fees you would be ahead to go with propane...plus the little added security that you have something on your property that "unities" you from the grid.

These new HVAC systems are super efficient these days and for the price of geothermal you can get a top notch high efficiency heat pump and air conditioner. They are super quiet and will call for and use what air is needed to maintain the temperature of your home versus just blasting you with 5 tons of cooling and heating like the units of yesterday.

These variable speeds helps maintain a constant temperature versus heating the house and making it too warm then it getting too cold before it kicks back on.
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #16  
I installed geo in my house myself, when heating oil was over $4.00 gallon. I also burn pellets. Costs more to burn pellets. I like the no outside noise of the geo. Operationally, its just a heat pump. Someone mentioned its more complex, no it isnt. Works the same.
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #17  
You need to really look at the cost of installation and operation for your area to make a decision. Said decision guided by TBNer's experience. :D

When we built our house we knew we would have a wood stove to heat the house but also a heat pump for cooling which would also heat. I looked at geothermal but the technology was too new as far as I was concerned and the installation prices I saw were so high that it made no sense to install geothermal.

Our house has a colored concrete floor which we love. We REALLY wanted to have radiant heating in that concrete and we REALLY wanted that heat to be from solar. But the bottom line made the radiant flooring disappear. We were already going to have two ways to heat the house, heat pump and wood stove, so having a third heat source was a bit too much. The cost to install the radiant floor was WAY too much. We never would have recovered the cost of radiant...

Having said that, 2-3 months of the year, we really wish we had radiant heating in the floors! :laughing::laughing::laughing:

If we were building today, the costs would likely be cheaper and thus our decision would be different. But the prices I see for an installation are likely to be very different than yours.

Later,
Dan
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #18  
I'm not an HVAC expert, just a home remodeler, so I get to see a lot of what's out there, and I also hear from quite a few people who have spent a lot of money to save money, and not seen those savings.

With all things mechanical, you have to be VERY CAREFUL in figuring out what is hype, and what is reality. What actually provides MEASURABLE results, and what is there just to make you feel better.

If I was building new house today, my focus would be on insulation and almost more importantly, wind proofing a house. I subscribe to several trade journals on home building, and where I'm seeing the biggest band for the buck is in keeping out the wind. House wrap was a big step forward, but it's full of leak points. Worse is around windows. Tape has gotten better at sealing windows, but the new paint on membranes are where the results seem to be really showing up. ZIP siding is far superior to OSB or plywood, and then house wrapping because of the membrane already on the exterior side. It's a much higher grade of OSB then what most people are used to, which is really evident when you cut it. You get it in 4x8, 4x9 and all the way up to 4x12 sheets. It's awesome stuff. Then you seal it with ZIP tape, which is really nice. I use it for everything now, it's what most people used to think Duct Tape was for, except Zip Tape really lasts and sticks to everything. Anyway, instead of the tape, the new membrane paints work even better. I've been using it in showers for years to waterproof everything. It's still expensive, but the results have been so good that more and more builders are starting to paint the entire exterior of their sheeting with it!!!

Heat and Cold go up and down. Here, the goal is to have R60 in your attic, which is about 2 feet of blown insulation. Foam is even better, but you still want the max R value that you can get. So far, anything after R60 doesn't seem to have any benefit.

In the walls, the R value isn't as important because of the up/down path heat and cold travel. This is why it doesn't really matter how many windows you have, it's how they are sealed that makes all the difference. Remember, most double pane windows are only going to be in the R4 range. Ignore all the gimmicky extras that are added to increase the cost of the window, all you want is ones that seal the best to keep the wind out.

Wind eliminates are R value from insulation. If you foam, the wind wont matter except around your openings in the walls, which are mostly windows and doors. If you use fiberglass, the wind will go right through it regardless of what you siding is. In just about every brick house that I've worked on, dirt is on the inside of the sheetrock,from where the wind went through the mortar, the gaps in the siding, and through the fiberglass and paper, to the sheetrock. Some houses are worse then others, but it's always there.

In houses that are 100% insulated with closed cell foam, and all the windows are taped, or painted, it takes almost nothing to heat and cool them. Insulation never wears out, never breaks down, and doesn't cost anything to operate. Put your money there first, then install what your HVAC expert in your area recommends.

As for finding an HVAC expert, good luck. I can't even count how many there are in my area, and over the years, I only trust and recommend one. Time and time, they have proven to be there when needed, and in every case, my clients where taken care of, not taken advantage of.
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #19  
Geo is the way to go. But shop around since the install costs can vary widely. If you are new construction, and the area is already torn up, you will likely save some money. If you have the area, trenching is quite a bit lower in cost compared to bore holes. While it is true that air heat pumps are getting more efficient, they can never match a geo system. A heat pump can be very efficient, but as the source (air for example) gets colder, the capacity goes down. In other words, fewer BTUs are delivered, so less overall heat is available. This then requires some additional heat, either electric or gas/oil. Note as it gets colder, the delivered (but reduced) BTUs are still delivered at high efficiency, but it may not be enough heat. So the colder it gets, the output is reduced, but the house's demand is also going up (due to losses) so aux heat will be needed at some point. The temp depends on your local climate. Geo, by comparison, is always dealing with a source that is 30-50 deg so the efficiency and capacity stays high. I have had geo since '05 and have had the aux heat come on only 1 day in that time. It was a long, very cold stretch (zero to teens for nearly a week).

As for brands, Climate Master and Water Furnace are the leaders. Bosch is catching up very quickly after purchasing Florida Heat Pump several years ago. All are comparable in cost. The contractor doing the loop install is the major cost adder and variable.

paul
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #20  
Good point about windproofing a house. When I replaced my windows I foamed them with aerosol latex foam. We also have 170 square feet of glass just on the south side of the house, so installed honeycomb blinds for the extra R value after dark.
 

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