New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC

   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #61  
The most efficient in-air heat pumps are the ductless ones. We've two controls and an outside Mitsubishi unit for the basement area here. They're the only ones without an electric coil backup. Probably close to geo in efficiency. Think they're about 4/1 for output/input vs. about 5/1 for geo. You can have up to about 7 controls off one master. Wouldn't be bad for new constuction, as you could easily hide the refrigerant lines running to each control unit.

For solar, we got into a local deal where 3 contractors signed up with a local city outfit that served as the go-between to get us a group discount. That, plus the 30% federal writeoff at the time gave us about a 7 year payout. Saves us $50/month on electricity. The wife claims she doesn't see it in the bill, but records show the $50 down, which is what our contractor said we'd get. It's a great thing. Just sits there and saves you money.

Ralph
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #62  
The most efficient in-air heat pumps are the ductless ones.

Ralph

The efficiency of minisplits is on par with conventional split systems. Minisplits were early to embrace things like inverter compressors, but manufacturers of conventional heat pumps mostly all offer the same features today. SEERs of the mid to upper 20's are now available in minisplits and conventional units.

Geo units are still more efficient overall. You must compare EER or COP as a comparison. Most heat pumps offer their SEER rating, which is a seasonal average performance and does not give a clear indication of overall efficiency. Note that Geo units do not give SEER ratings, only EER or COP for that reason.

Look at: Seasonal energy efficiency ratio - Wikipedia

Note the statement that for residential cooling systems: "EER for residential central cooling units = 0.875 × SEER"

paul
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #63  
Have you looked into building with SIPS? If not, take 15 minutes and google them. They basically make your house air tight...to the point you need an air exchange system. Anyway, they are so efficient, they reduce the need for your heat and ac system by a lot (30-40%). They also get your house under roof much quicker, like a week.

SIPS =simulated insulated panels

Structural Insulated Panels actually.
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #64  
Lol, yeah. What I typed doesn’t even make sense. Anyway, sips are cool and probably what I am going to build with.
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #65  
I just built a few years ago & can share a couple of thoughts. One is that NG, electrical, solar, & propane costs are highly regional and location specific. Not only do the basic costs of energy vary a lot, but they are also subject to being changed taxed and surcharged at every level of politics. You can't do much about the cost of energy, but you can stay flexible by deliberately designing in a way that keeps your options open.

I don't know about Kentucky, but here in the rural west, along with politics and variable energy costs, even our normally reliable winter & summer climate isn't so stable anymore. You say you want to design for 30+ years, but what will it be like then?
In the Rocky Mountains we don't seem to be having much of a winter for the last few years. Little snow, but more rain than usual means that drainage has become the issue that plowing snow used to be. In fact, the unstable weather is what got me to thinking about flexible design. I've lived here 50 years, and finally got the tractors all set up to deal with deep snow - and since 2013 haven't had much snow. Instead, we had to re-design for rains & drainage.
This year the ground hasn't even frozen hard yet. Yesterday I noticed that little bitty grasshoppers about 1/8" long were hatching out in large numbers. Both the grasshoppers and flying bugs are already out.

Here's an example of what I mean by staying energy flexible: Are you going to put a wood fireplace or stove or hearth burning NG in the living room? Those are great for backup heat and for aesthetics. And finished fireplaces and some stoves can be expensive enough that you might want to hold off on them right now. But all of them use the same kind of chimney - so this is the time to design a chimney into the new build. If you think a chimney is expensive now, you are right....it sure is. But just compare that with adding one later....

What I'm saying is that the times are uncertain, and if you are building new, then why not put money into keeping your options open? A full concrete basement with thick walls & sunk into deep into the ground is not only a great foundation, storage, and storm shelter....but it provides geo-thermally stable temperature for the entire house. And it does that for free just by being in the earth. Free geo-thermal is nice, but what I mean by keeping your options open in the case of a basement/foundation would be to build whatever access points, exterior doorways, mounting points, drainage sumps, hydronic, or geothermal piping right into the walls and floors when the basement/foundation is poured. These options don't cost anything now - most are basically just holes in the poured concrete. But they sure give a ton of options later on. You don't need to install those systems now, but any clever architect can provide all the necessary holes and pads so that you can install at any time in the future. Making it possible - even easy - to do those things in the future costs very little in a new build.

As another example of designing towards keeping options open, I had them put heat pipes into the concrete floor before the cement was poured. Although a hydronically heated floor can be expensive, putting in the necessary piping in case I ever wanted to hook it up added little more than the cost of the special heat pipe itself. This is also the time to consider putting in any necessary geo-thermal mounts or connections as well - even though you may or may not complete the geothermal installation until years later or never.

Upstairs for exterior walls remember that the insulation will determine more about the energy costs than what type of heat or AC that you put in. Look at your coldest and warmest walls and consider what it would take to over-insulate them. Same for the roof. You just cannot have too much insulation and separation between layers in the walls and roof.

What I'm saying is that if you design in your options now, then you don't have to be tied to any one type of Heat/AC for 30 years. If some energy advantage comes along you can go with it.
Good luck...sounds fun,
rScotty
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #66  
Since it's new construction. check on the installation price of installing a mini split system for the entire home. Very efficient for heating and cooling.

Depending on the line, auto changeover is not a possibility with mini splits unless it's a VRF system with simultaneously heating and cooling. Issue there is no one I know of makes a VRF system with simultaneous heating/cooling in single phase.

Depending on the loads of the rooms and the layout of the house, this coould lead to some aggravation on the homeowners part. I know of one brand that does allow auto changeover, but talking with them, they get a lot of calls from people who don't like the wait time to change from heat to cool or vise versa.

Added, with mini split indoor units, they have to be serviced annually on the indoor units which can really add up if you have someone do it, and they are kind of a PITA IMO as getting up on a wall, taking it apart, and cleaining the coil and blower wheel isn't the most fun I've had. More than a couple of times have had homeowners complain about a lack of heating and cooling with a sub 5 year old system, only to find out that the blower wheel has never been cleaned nor coil.

I really do think mini splits are great, but if I had the option and money, definately do geo over mini splits.
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #67  
The most efficient in-air heat pumps are the ductless ones.

They are very efficient, but it's kind of misleading because of the ratings with no ductwork.

Look at the mini split lines that actually produce a ducted multi position air handler, and you'll find that most US HVAC manufacturers actually have a higher efficient system for the same cost or even less.

Added, if you run a mitsubishi with more than 5 heads off a multi zone system, you'll have to run two branch boxes off the outdoor unit. Just found cost wise, a fully modulating inverter heat pump system can be more practical if duct work can be run added the install cost will generally be less.
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #68  
The efficiency of minisplits is on par with conventional split systems. Minisplits were early to embrace things like inverter compressors, but manufacturers of conventional heat pumps mostly all offer the same features today. SEERs of the mid to upper 20's are now available in minisplits and conventional units.

Geo units are still more efficient overall. You must compare EER or COP as a comparison. Most heat pumps offer their SEER rating, which is a seasonal average performance and does not give a clear indication of overall efficiency. Note that Geo units do not give SEER ratings, only EER or COP for that reason.

Look at: Seasonal energy efficiency ratio - Wikipedia

Note the statement that for residential cooling systems: "EER for residential central cooling units = 0.875 ラ SEER"

paul

There's a direct relationship between SEER and COP. Forgotten what it is.

Ralph
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #69  
I lived near Hopkinsville KY (western KY) from 1998-2012. I installed a WaterFurnace closed loop geothermal unit in 2001 (I believe it was a 3 ton). The unit was in the crawlspace under the living room. The floor was not insulated but there was only a low pitched hum when the compressor was running (many people wouldn't even notice it).

I saved some $ by contracting out the trenching and then filling in the trenches myself with my tractor. 750 feet of trenches, 4 feet deep.

I believe there was a 10 year parts warranty and I had no issues for the 11 years that I lived there (other than a clogging condensate drain).

I was a little disappointed by the savings. The 1500 square foot, 1.5 story house was built in 1999 and was fairly well insulated (2x6 walls). I also had the desuperheater loop that helped heat my water and I kept the upstairs registers closed- yet electric bills were typically about $110-120 a month during the 3 hottest summer months and about the same during the 2 coldest winter months. Thermostat was set at 77 degrees during the summer and 68 during the winter. Most other months (besides hottest and coldest), the bills were $50-$75 per month.

In retrospect, I probably did not recoup the extra initial cost of the geothermal unit and I would have been better off just installing a high efficiency conventional unit.

Whatever geothermal unit you look at, ask the salesperson to price a few repair scenarios like a new compressor, new circuit board, fixing a closed loop leak etc.
 
   / New Build in 2018: Geothermal vs NG/conventional AC #70  
electric bills were typically about $110-120 a month during the 3 hottest summer months and about the same during the 2 coldest winter months.

Your bills do seem a bit high for what you described. What are your loop temps at the peak times. You may not have good coupling to the soil (air pockets, etc)

I have a 2800 sq ft house, 4" walls, all electric, 4 adults, etc. My bills are an average of $ 100/mo over a year ($ 1200/yr). For sure your summer cooling should be much lower.

paul
 

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