New dump trailer upgrade?

[zubin6220]

I recently purchased a new Big Tex 10,000 GVWR dump trailer and was disappointed that it would not lift a load of sand (dry). The load was only about 1/2 way up the side and spread out evenly. I have since learned to pile it more towards the rear. In any case, my question refers to the posibility of changing out the cylinder to a larger one. Is this do-able? Of course there is the question of the pump etc. I was just wondering if anyone has done something similar. I understand that I'm limited on the axle size and all. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.

 

[john_bud]

Easy to change out the cylinder. You just need to know if it is single acting or double acting. If it has 2 hoses and you can power it down, it's double. If it has one hose it's single.

Then you need to know the cylinder bore. The wall thickness is usually 3/16 for small cylinders and 1/4 for the larger ones. Going up either 1/2" in bore or 1" will probably do you fine.

Next the distance between the mounting pins with the cylinder closed and fully open. The pin diameter is needed too along with the type of mounts.

Last thing is the rod diameter. You want one the same or a bit larger than what you have.

Surplus Center - Hydraulic Equipment Electric Motors has a lot of variety mostly new, but some surplus.

 

[MJPetersen]

If it has one hose it's single.

Some times they put 2 hoses on a single acting cylinder--the line to the bottom of the cylinder will be the pressure line ot extend the cyl and lift the load. The top half of cylinder also has a line that runs to the tank. It serves as a vent line and extra reservoir capacity.

Almost always cylinders in a dump will be single. I have never seen a double acting cyl in this application. Normally it has power up and a gravity down.

Changing the cylinder should not be difficult, as John_bud stated. Once you figure out what you have and decide what will fit in your application. Remember a small increase in diameter makes a HUGE increase in power. A 2 inch dia cylinder @ 1500 psi will yield about 4700 lbs of push. A 3 inch dia cylinder @1500 psi will result in about 10600 lbs of push. make sure the mounting brackets, and dump mechanism will handle the additional force.

Mike

 

[RonMar]

Mike beat me to it by a few minutes. And last, but of course not least, will the rest of the trailer and bed structure handle the added force of a larger diameter piston?

How much weight were you trying to lift? My little black book tells me that dry sand weighs about 100# per cubic foot. A 10' X 6' X 2' bed half full would be around 6000# worth of sand, A 12' X 6' X2' half full would be 7200# Damp/wet sand would be around 7200# for the 10' bed and 8600# for the 12' bed half full. Trailer that size after the structure weight is probably only rated for around 6.5K-7.5K of payload.

I would check with the manufacturer and see if they say it is rated to dump that much weight. If so, perhaps your HPU is not getting to full rated pressure(safety relieving early?). At the same time you could ask them about a larger capacity cylinder installation.

 

[radman1]

My Titan dump trailer is 14K and has power up and down. I have seen them both ways. Power down is good if loading equipment into trailer and not have the box lift up from the rear weight/ramps. I have had mine loaded well over 14K and haven't been able to find its lifting limit yet. I tend to keep the loader centered on the trailer axles to reduce tongue weight.
Make sure you battery is well charged. Weak battery won't have strong lift. My trailer when "new" had weak battery from sitting on lot for several months, over winter and everyone playing with the lift and no recharging of the battery.
Check the weight of your trailer when loaded. Even "half filled" with rock/sand maybe well exceed your trailer limit and too much for the lift. It is very easy to over load these types of trailers. I overfill them way too often but I am getting fairly good at guessing weight within 1K.

 

[tulenutn2o]

My advice on these types of trailers is to buy a better known brand,look at what construction crews use.They constantly abuse/overload them.I bought a Keifer Built 6.5x12 12000 lb unit a few years back from a concrete contractor.It was well worn.I looked at the main structure first.I can't overload this thing!It will lift anything I put in it!Of course it has a good scissor under it with a 8" cylinder,I believe.This was acase where used and proven won out over New and unsure.Just my thoughts.

 

[Dougster]

I went with what was supposed to be a premium brand (although others have since disputed that description) and found that my 10K Downeaster dump trailer (7,500 lbs net) would not lift off it's frame with a full 7,500 lb load. First, I blamed the supplied battery which turned out to be dated 2002!!! But even after replacing the battery with a brand new one, it still had trouble lifting a full load.

I should point out here that I tend to load toward the front of my trailer to increase tongue weight... the trailer will lift with a full-load if loaded evenly or toward the back... but that condition is not safe for travel.

Anyway... I then approached a local trailer dealer who does repairs and asked him how much to modify this trailer from a single to compound action using the same cylinder (making it essentially identical to trailers that he sold). He talked me out of that approach as too complicated and costly... but he also pointed out that dump trailer hydraulics are adjustable in regard to supplied pressure. He said that before I did anything, I should check the setting on the pump and adjust it... 1/4 turn at a time... to see if that was the issue. Obviously, a good pressure gauge would help in this regard and I am ordering one as we speak.

Bottom line: I haven't tried this yet as my trailer is still out of service due to Chinese tire failure issues... but as soon as I pickup a full load again, I aim to try this possible solution.

Dougster

 

[radman1]

Turning up the pressure may help your problem but installing a $20 pressure gauge would be a good idea. Be careful of the front loading unless you have a gooseneck to take the weight. If I front loaded my trailer, I could probably put 3-4K on my reciever hitch, which is way over loaded. For a 10K trailer, 1K on the bumper is enough and probably more than the bumper is rated for. You maybe asking too much from the trailer with front loading.

 

[Dougster]

Turning up the pressure may help your problem but installing a $20 pressure gauge would be a good idea. Be careful of the front loading unless you have a gooseneck to take the weight. If I front loaded my trailer, I could probably put 3-4K on my reciever hitch, which is way over loaded. For a 10K trailer, 1K on the bumper is enough and probably more than the bumper is rated for. You maybe asking too much from the trailer with front loading.

It's only a 10-ft long dump trailer with the two sets of axles/wheels centered a bit too close to the the midpoint for my taste. A level-loaded trailer provides me with almost no tongue weight. Shift the load slightly to the rear and I go negative.

Tongue weight capability is 1,500 lbs for both the hitch and truck... and I like it best a bit over a grand.

Dougster

 

[john_bud]

Some times they put 2 hoses on a single acting cylinder--the line to the bottom of the cylinder will be the pressure line ot extend the cyl and lift the load. The top half of cylinder also has a line that runs to the tank. It serves as a vent line and extra reservoir capacity.


Mike

I've not seen that with true single acting cylinders where the cylinder bore is the same as the rod diameter. Only with DA cylinders being used in a SA application. But, you learn something every day!

jb

 

[zubin6220]

Thank you all for your comments.

 

[MJPetersen]

I've not seen that with true single acting cylinders where the cylinder bore is the same as the rod diameter. Only with DA cylinders being used in a SA application. But, you learn something every day!jb

John, Not all truly SA cylinders have the rod dia the same as the cylinder bore. I had a backhoe attach for a skid steer that had one way swing cylinders that simply had a vent in the end. It was not even a threaded vent.

By the way--I learned something on that too. I repainted the hoe and ended up rebuilding the swing cylinders because I did not tape off the vent and paint does not allow venting. sucked oil around the piston seals and ruined them. I learned about vents and single action cylinders from my 10 hour mistake.

Always follow your repairs and your rebuild with great interest. I will not, like Catman, make any comments about what's next though.

Mike

 

[radman1]

It's only a 10-ft long dump trailer with the two sets of axles/wheels centered a bit too close to the the midpoint for my taste. A level-loaded trailer provides me with almost no tongue weight. Shift the load slightly to the rear and I go negative.

Tongue weight capability is 1,500 lbs for both the hitch and truck... and I like it best a bit over a grand.

Dougster

I understand better now. I don't think 1000-1500# is excessive tongue weight. My wheels are closer to the rear 2/3's of the trailer. I would check the pressure.
I have a $20 glycerin pressure gauge that will go up to 5000 psi. Great for checking hydraulic pressure. You should be able to remove the hose from the cylinder, and with an adapter, attach the gauge to the end. Check the pressure rating of the hose and cylinder so you don't adjust the pressure too high. Maybe, the pressure relief is set too low from the factory. Hopefully, you can go to 2500-3000 psi. Most hoses and cylinders will go at least 2500 psi. I took my JD CUT from 2400 to 2800 psi. Skid steers run about 3000 psi. Don't quote me, but I think many electric hydraulic pumps are set near 2000-2200 psi.

 

[Dougster]

I understand better now. I don't think 1000-1500# is excessive tongue weight. My wheels are closer to the rear 2/3's of the trailer. I would check the pressure. I have a $20 glycerin pressure gauge that will go up to 5000 psi. Great for checking hydraulic pressure. You should be able to remove the hose from the cylinder, and with an adapter, attach the gauge to the end. Check the pressure rating of the hose and cylinder so you don't adjust the pressure too high. Maybe, the pressure relief is set too low from the factory. Hopefully, you can go to 2500-3000 psi. Most hoses and cylinders will go at least 2500 psi. I took my JD CUT from 2400 to 2800 psi. Skid steers run about 3000 psi. Don't quote me, but I think many electric hydraulic pumps are set near 2000-2200 psi.

Been shopping around for one but can't find one for less than $40.00. May I ask... where did you find yours?

Dougster

 

[john_bud]

John, Not all truly SA cylinders have the rod dia the same as the cylinder bore. I had a backhoe attach for a skid steer that had one way swing cylinders that simply had a vent in the end. It was not even a threaded vent.

By the way--I learned something on that too. I repainted the hoe and ended up rebuilding the swing cylinders because I did not tape off the vent and paint does not allow venting. sucked oil around the piston seals and ruined them. I learned about vents and single action cylinders from my 10 hour mistake.

Always follow your repairs and your rebuild with great interest. I will not, like Catman, make any comments about what's next though.

Mike

Mike,

Yeah, there's a lot of "stuff" in the world and reading about it here is one way to learn. Thanks for the update!

It's funny, but my backhoes are the same way with the swing cylinders. They are single action - but for retract and not for extend. There is a wire nest filter vent on the ends. Maybe I should have remembered that.... Oh well. They say that memory is the 2nd thing you lose with old age.

And thanks for not giving "the Catman Jinx"! As they say, I can mess up on my own, don't need any help there.

jb

 

[SkunkWerX]

For hydraulic high pressure gauges you can try Northern Tools or McMaster.
Get a 5000psi gauge, as gauges are designed to read best in their mid-range.

At Northern look here:
gauge from Northern Tool + Equipment

At Mcmaster-Carrr guages begin at page 550, they have tons of gauges.
McMaster-Carr

 

[kennyd]

Been shopping around for one but can't find one for less than $40.00. May I ask... where did you find yours?

Dougster

The Surplus Center has lots of good stuff cheap!
Click HERE

 

[Dougster]

For hydraulic high pressure gauges you can try Northern Tools or McMaster.
Get a 5000psi gauge, as gauges are designed to read best in their mid-range.
At Northern look here:
gauge from Northern Tool + Equipment
At Mcmaster-Carrr guages begin at page 550, they have tons of gauges.
McMaster-Carr

The Surplus Center has lots of good stuff cheap!
Click HERE

Thanks guys. You're absolutely right... I've got to go to the net or I'm gonna pay too much. Why I even bother shopping locally anymore for stuff like this is beyond me.

Dougster

 

[hill]

Thanks guys. You're absolutely right... I've got to go to the net or I'm gonna pay too much. Why I even bother shopping locally anymore for stuff like this is beyond me.

Dougster

HUGE 10-4 to that!

I have two battery disconnect switches with big red removable keys that I bought from Harbor freight for $2.99 the pair, just because it seemed like something I might use someday. They're rated at some 250+ amps. You may have seen the thing in mailed throwaways, or not.

I saw the VERY SAME switch yesterday at our local Wilco hardware/farm equipment store, all packaged on a card and in a bubble with lots of text describing the wonderfullness of the thing - ONE switch at $22.95!
Guess that's how they earned the "True Value" reputation.

 

[gotcha]

I'm attaching some spec's of the Downeaster that I purchased (TR6810L5) and I got the double acting cylinder. Also attached is a picture of the trailer after coming home from my fabricator who installed the additional 2 feet Alum diamond plate extensions. Notice the load capacity weight in the chart for this 10K unit. it is only 7470 pounds. I do remodeling and use it as a dumpster and boy do I put some weight in it and have no trouble dumping it. I have one slip right here in front of me showing a weight that I dropped off of 8203 pounds. No problems.
This is meant mainly for the specification so one can see approx what they are intended to carry/dump. Sorry, I'll have to have the specs to follow for some unknown reason it will not upload.
The Gotcha Man