One thing that tells me is that you maintain your brakes well. The same can't be said for many newer vehicles.
Rgds, D.
New Tires now have flat spots...
- Thread starter ultrarunner
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One thing that tells me is that you maintain your brakes well. The same can't be said for many newer vehicles.
Rgds, D.
We agree on why ABS has the potential to deliver retained steering control - locked wheels don't steer much. Enhanced steering control is only of value when the driver steers around something safely - looks stupid when I type that, but target fixation is a real problem in emergency situations. That was really the first point I was raising.
One of the traps people seem to fall into is blind faith in technology..... 4wd vehicles are invincible in Winter being another example.
If someone only drives on pavement or concrete, and never snow or gravel, then ignore the point I've raised.
If that's not you, then don't just take my (or Wikipedia's) word for it, do some further reading, starting with some rally racing sites.
With an average driver, and a realistically (non) maintained vehicle, ABS is not a bad compromise today. Bear in mind, not all ABS systems are created equal; in fact some older ones were pretty dismal.
Do I accept that if you have a vehicle with switchable (On/Off) ABS, and a safe test area to work with, that you can get better ABS On results (braking distance wise) under some surface conditions - Yes.
Do I believe that same test vehicle will have ABS On beat ABS Off under all conditions - No.
Picture a freshly gravelled road. If you lock up all 4 wheels (ABS Off), you end up pushing 4 mounds of gravel in front of the tires (hence, the reason for the switch on the old Audis) and stopping relatively quickly in a straight line, with little steering control. ABS On, you end up steering more accurately, sliding on top of a lot of marbles - you may be able to "point" the car better, but it takes further to stop.
As a mental image, gravel is fairly easy to picture interacting with tires. Snow is similar, but effects will vary quite a bit depending on density, moisture, etc.
Excess speed is often cited as a cause of accidents. In my rambling way, I've just used different words... people overdriving their brakes. IMO, blind faith in ABS contributes to some people overdriving their brakes.
Rgds, D.
P.S. - by now I normally would have apologized to an average OP for thread drift :laughing:, but I'm counting on URs wide range of technical interests for some slack here.....
Just glad you and everyone else only had to deal with the personal after-effects of adrenalin, and nothing more.... :thumbsup:
Rgds, D.
Just glad you and everyone else only had to deal with the personal after-effects of adrenalin, and nothing more.... :thumbsup:
Rgds, D.
rsallen
Platinum Member
It's not the pile of gravel or snow in front of the tires that stop the vehicle, but the more solid ground underlying the loose riprap on top. And if you're doing motocross or driving logging roads or want to play then by all means turn off or unplug the abs.
And I don't know if you've ever driven on snow roads before but just try stopping a car with one wheel in a icy rut and keep the car under control much less just stopping period without abs, even steering out under power is a challenge.
And I doubt seriously you can find anyone that drives a sixteen wheeler complaining about how that dam abs system hurts their braking distances.
Abs is not a compromise any more than seat belts were an olive leaf to Ralph Nader. Is was a huge leap in braking technology and cut as much as a third off of stopping distances discounting any other advances in the automotive industry.
The trouble comes in when like you say dave the person behind the wheel doesn't know the limits of what they're driving, and that's my gripe as well.
The first thing I tell any of my costumers who has a new driver is to take them out where the car can be pushed to it's limits without losing it with no harm done so the driver can learn about the horse they're ride'n (so to speak).
But that has nothing, zero, nada to do with how good the abs system performs under almost all circumstances.
And I don't know if you've ever driven on snow roads before but just try stopping a car with one wheel in a icy rut and keep the car under control much less just stopping period without abs, even steering out under power is a challenge.
And I doubt seriously you can find anyone that drives a sixteen wheeler complaining about how that dam abs system hurts their braking distances.
Abs is not a compromise any more than seat belts were an olive leaf to Ralph Nader. Is was a huge leap in braking technology and cut as much as a third off of stopping distances discounting any other advances in the automotive industry.
The trouble comes in when like you say dave the person behind the wheel doesn't know the limits of what they're driving, and that's my gripe as well.
The first thing I tell any of my costumers who has a new driver is to take them out where the car can be pushed to it's limits without losing it with no harm done so the driver can learn about the horse they're ride'n (so to speak).
But that has nothing, zero, nada to do with how good the abs system performs under almost all circumstances.
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Some of the best threads take on a life of their own.
Some of the best threads take on a life of their own.
When I started driving, we had seat belts, but tires, brakes, and handling were much worse than today's vehicles.
As it was a much harsher Darwinian time (people walk away from high speed crashes with automobiles today, that routinely killed people back then) anyone with even a little sense did exactly what you describe rsallen - find a large empty parking lot during the first good snow, and learn your vehicle's limits. Although vehicle safety systems are better today (I'll get back to that....), that Test Before Emergency Happens strategy still holds true.....
As UR started with in this thread, a lot of the time there needs to be a whole lot more thinking going on behind the wheel, period.
There have been a lot of safety advances in the time I've been driving. But, in many ways, people are much more disconnected (in more respects than just driving) today than ever.
There was/is an aviation thread on here, that I posted a link to a long Maclean's article that detailed air disasters that occured, largely because avionics masked or mis-reported basic issues that could have fairly readily be flown around/compensated for, if the pilots realized what was going on. That old blind-faith in technology thing.... writ large.....
I was at my buddy's commercial shop the other day, he was checking over a customer's car out front, just before they picked it up. It was at the shop for something else entirely, but he was checking tire pressures anyway, something he routinely does for regular customers. One of the front car tires had 60 psi in it - way high.
In older days, you'd notice the difference under hard braking on dry pavement, and, if you had any sense, check it out. Add ABS, overinflated tire won't break traction..... few drivers will notice the longer-than-spec braking distances thus created.
Yeah, I know, the answer (TPMS) is add more technology
.
Yep, lived all my life in the Great White Nord.... have driven through stuff that I'd wish on only a few of my worst enemies, including some massive ice-storms ('98 was a doozy). All of the modern alphabet soup of safety systems have their merits, and limitations.
Rgds, D.
As it was a much harsher Darwinian time (people walk away from high speed crashes with automobiles today, that routinely killed people back then) anyone with even a little sense did exactly what you describe rsallen - find a large empty parking lot during the first good snow, and learn your vehicle's limits. Although vehicle safety systems are better today (I'll get back to that....), that Test Before Emergency Happens strategy still holds true.....
As UR started with in this thread, a lot of the time there needs to be a whole lot more thinking going on behind the wheel, period.
There have been a lot of safety advances in the time I've been driving. But, in many ways, people are much more disconnected (in more respects than just driving) today than ever.
There was/is an aviation thread on here, that I posted a link to a long Maclean's article that detailed air disasters that occured, largely because avionics masked or mis-reported basic issues that could have fairly readily be flown around/compensated for, if the pilots realized what was going on. That old blind-faith in technology thing.... writ large.....
I was at my buddy's commercial shop the other day, he was checking over a customer's car out front, just before they picked it up. It was at the shop for something else entirely, but he was checking tire pressures anyway, something he routinely does for regular customers. One of the front car tires had 60 psi in it - way high.
In older days, you'd notice the difference under hard braking on dry pavement, and, if you had any sense, check it out. Add ABS, overinflated tire won't break traction..... few drivers will notice the longer-than-spec braking distances thus created.
Yeah, I know, the answer (TPMS) is add more technology
.Yep, lived all my life in the Great White Nord.... have driven through stuff that I'd wish on only a few of my worst enemies, including some massive ice-storms ('98 was a doozy). All of the modern alphabet soup of safety systems have their merits, and limitations.
Rgds, D.
Any luck with the tires? If not, go old school and slick them down, find a spot out of the way, and burn some rubber. Burnouts will help round things back out some (by reducing tread). Just be sure to rotate the tires.
Get them balanced after that.
If you grew up in a world before ABS, then the first time you stood on the brakes, hit some bumps, and felt the braking action almost stop, then you will understand where the thought comes from.
Of course standing on the brakes means something very different today. When I was a kid, I had the original anti-lock brakes in my truck. Drums on all 4 corners. The pads would slick over if you applied the brakes steady enough and I could actually lift my rear end off the seat and "stand" on the brake pedal without locking up the tires. Of course a quick jab to the pedal would lock the wheels and produce some pretty mean stripes on the pavement. Don't remember ever getting flat spots on those tires though.
Well the tire shop I go to sells a hazard warranty for about $9 per tire. I have only had to use it twice. The TPMS system had turned on but it was the first subfreezing day of the year and I thought I had a tire that was at about 30lbs cause of the cold. I drove it to the store and then looked. On was almost flat. I had shredded the inside of the tire. They replaced it for the cost of new warranty. Then the other time I had 20K on a 50K tire and somehow got three nails in one tire. They replaced the tire and only charge me $9 for the new warranty. The tire would have cost me ~$80 to replace. I consider that a relative bargain.
joshuabardwell
Elite Member
I guess it's possible that a skilled driver could beat an ABS system under some conditions. A skilled driver will be able to approach the threshold of traction without going over it, whereas ABS inherently has to go over the threshold slightly before it can compensate. But the point I raised was not whether it was possible for a non-ABS car to outbrake an ABS car, but whether locking the wheels produced shorter stopping distances than ABS. If we set aside gravel and dirt, which are not relevant to the story that started the thread, it's really hard for me to believe that the situation would have been made worse by the presence of ABS. The vehicle's wheels locked up and wore flat spots on them, which means that the vehicle was over the "threshold" of static friction and into kinetic friction.
rsallen
Platinum Member
Nah dave,
Beyond abs and srs I'm not high on technology. Too many bells and whistles takes away from the driving experience and does disconnect one from the essence and fundamental need to keep touch with the world at 60 miles an hour. I haven't driven a new car I would own and I work on far too many of the newer cars that after driving them I have to just shake my head wondering wtf were they thinking.
Don't know maybe the roads would be a lot safer if everyone had to learn to drive on bias ply tires, a 3 speed on the column and drums brakes like I did. But to tell you the truth dave, I shutter inside a little these days when I drive one of those 'classics'. There was an inherent danger built into each and every one of them, and each marque had something different to learn about, today we euphemistically call it character to be kind.
But to me the safety technology from the auto industry jumped the shark around 04 or 05.
There are things one can not do on the road with a working abs system but stopping faster is not one of them. The best performing braking system can't do it. The best formulated tires can't do it. The best drivers in the world can't do it.
Ultarunner,
How far was this Nantucket sleighride you took?
I'd bend that dealers ear about flat spots and expect some kind of warranty.
Beyond abs and srs I'm not high on technology. Too many bells and whistles takes away from the driving experience and does disconnect one from the essence and fundamental need to keep touch with the world at 60 miles an hour. I haven't driven a new car I would own and I work on far too many of the newer cars that after driving them I have to just shake my head wondering wtf were they thinking.
Don't know maybe the roads would be a lot safer if everyone had to learn to drive on bias ply tires, a 3 speed on the column and drums brakes like I did. But to tell you the truth dave, I shutter inside a little these days when I drive one of those 'classics'. There was an inherent danger built into each and every one of them, and each marque had something different to learn about, today we euphemistically call it character to be kind.
But to me the safety technology from the auto industry jumped the shark around 04 or 05.
There are things one can not do on the road with a working abs system but stopping faster is not one of them. The best performing braking system can't do it. The best formulated tires can't do it. The best drivers in the world can't do it.
Ultarunner,
How far was this Nantucket sleighride you took?
I'd bend that dealers ear about flat spots and expect some kind of warranty.
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