Niche segment oppurtunity

[4570Man]

If you have better numbers let me know but for comparison I found my diesel
Is about 1.75gph under load. My personal experience and based on forums for a 35-40hp carberated gas is about 2gph hitting the governor the whole time. I hear the newer efi are a bit better.
Let’s run the numbers for 1000hrs giving the diesel 1.5gph and the gas 2gph

Diesel:
1000hrs x 1.5gph x 5$/gal = 7500$
Gas
1000hrs x 2.0gph x 4$/gal = 8000$

I don’t know those numbers to be exact. My CUT has probably 10-15% of its hours at idle where a diesel will beat a gas at idle. Different warm up protocols.
Another data point based on zero turns again (only application where the exact same machine has the 25hp diesel and 35-40hp gas) diesel guys claim .5gph and gas guys claim 1.5gph if that ratio true it would be the gas would be 3500 more than diesel.

There are alotnof factors but based on rough numbers I don’t think saying paying an extra 5000$ for a diesel to save 500$ of fuel makes sense. If it’s closer to the second example of 3500 maybe.

My diesel ZT is burning closer to 1gph I’ve it’s even that much vs 1.5 gph. Also if you’re burning red diesel in the diesel and burning road gas in the gas burner without filling to collect the tax paid a $1 difference in price would be extremely rare. Also my ZT currently has 2610 hours and still cutting grass which is above the lifespan of the cheaper gas motors. It would have been due a motor replacement that’s probably upwards of 2k if it was gas. A better gas motor could be produced but now you’re cutting into the upfront cost savings.

 

[MossRoad]

In regards to the tq and hp curves. On my gear drive unit it is nice to be able to set the hand throttle at 1000rpm select a gear then use the foot throttle to be able to adjust the speed between 1000 and 2300rpm. However with our hypothetical 40hp gas powered CUT having a modern hydro transmission couldnt you just run it at rated hp (and torque) the entire time and use the hydro to adjust speed? It seems that low rpm torque matters much less with a hydro but I have not used one much so correct me if I’m wrong.

Yes. Exactly. The little air cooled gas engine in my PT425 is meant to be run at 3600rpm.

The big liquid cooled gas engine in my old IH2500b with HST was meant to be run at full RPM for best power, control, braking and cooling.

 

[rScotty]

I currently own a John Deere 950 for background. I’ve been researching some about the 25hp “limit” where there is a large price jump to go up in power.

3025d 18,000$
3035d 22,600$
SNIP

Uh.... I am confused. Are you thinking of adding a zero turn to your stable & keeping the 950?
That does make sense.

But those JD's are smaller compacts.... I'm afraid that neither the 3025 or the 3035 is going to do the work of a good running 950. At best the 3035 might match it at some things.
rScotty

 

[Anomic]

Uh.... I am confused. Are you thinking of adding a zero turn to your stable & keeping the 950?
That does make sense.

But those JD's are smaller compacts.... I'm afraid that neither the 3025 or the 3035 is going to do the work of a good running 950. At best the 3035 might match it at some

I just mentioned the 950 for reference to show I’m not a diesel hater. I already have a zero turn to keep the hours off the tractor.
I was making the thread thinking about how many people are priced out of the market now and will be shortly with the price increases. Me personally I have the 950 Mfwd but no loader. I rent a skid steer or mini-ex about once a year for my vacation and get by. If I wanted to buy something new I’d be looking slightly bigger than the 950 to run some larger implements and a strong loader, probably a 4052 but a 45k tractor isn’t in the cards for me. My plan is to do careful maintenance and keep the 950 forever

 

[MossRoad]

If you have better numbers let me know but for comparison I found my diesel
Is about 1.75gph under load. My personal experience and based on forums for a 35-40hp carberated gas is about 2gph hitting the governor the whole time. I hear the newer efi are a bit better.
Let’s run the numbers for 1000hrs giving the diesel 1.5gph and the gas 2gph

Diesel:
1000hrs x 1.5gph x 5$/gal = 7500$
Gas
1000hrs x 2.0gph x 4$/gal = 8000$

I don’t know those numbers to be exact. My CUT has probably 10-15% of its hours at idle where a diesel will beat a gas at idle. Different warm up protocols.
Another data point based on zero turns again (only application where the exact same machine has the 25hp diesel and 35-40hp gas) diesel guys claim .5gph and gas guys claim 1.5gph if that ratio true it would be the gas would be 3500 more than diesel.

There are alotnof factors but based on rough numbers I don’t think saying paying an extra 5000$ for a diesel to save 500$ of fuel makes sense. If it’s closer to the second example of 3500 maybe.

All that being the case, if you're a lawn service company or have very large acreage, the diesel will almost definitely last at least twice if not more likely 3 times longer than the gas. When I was running the numbers 20+ years ago for our 25hp Kohler, almost everyone that ran them for a living said to expect 2000-2500 hours out of them as best case and anything after that to be considered borrowed time, while they were expecting 10,000 out of their diesels. While I personally have no experience with that, that's what they were telling me. Average home owner only puts about 50 hours per year on their machine. I've got right around 1000 on mine in around 20 years, so that was accurate for my case.

I think if I was going into the mowing business where I was going to put on many hundreds of hours per year, I'd get a diesel powered machine.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

In another year or two electric/battery powered subcompact tractors and zero turns will be entering the market. Wait.

Doesn't mean there's demand for them.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

But a 40hp gas turning hydraulic pumps is going to provide 15 more HP to those pumps than a 25hp diesel. That's a fact.

So then why doesn't the industry offer one?

 

[WM75Guy]

I went from a $3,000 24HP gas Cub Cadet RZT50 50" deck to a $14,000 24HP diesel Kubota ZD1211 60" deck. The difference is night and day. Now my wife likes to mow the yard, so that was money well spent.

 

[rScotty]

I just mentioned the 950 for reference to show I’m not a diesel hater. I already have a zero turn to keep the hours off the tractor.
I was making the thread thinking about how many people are priced out of the market now and will be shortly with the price increases. Me personally I have the 950 Mfwd but no loader. I rent a skid steer or mini-ex about once a year for my vacation and get by. If I wanted to buy something new I’d be looking slightly bigger than the 950 to run some larger implements and a strong loader, probably a 4052 but a 45k tractor isn’t in the cards for me. My plan is to do careful maintenance and keep the 950 forever

That JD950 just might be a contender for the most reliable long-lived basic small tractor ever made. Sliding gear transmission and not a single convenience frill - other than about the best MFWD ever. Even the PTO is a simple two stage mechanical clutch. Hydraulic flow is decent.

But that's not to say it can't be dressed up. JD also had just the right accessories for anyone who wanted to make additions to the basic tractor. Every attachment was an owner-bolt on....
Add-on power steering that is simple and works, a really solid loader, a big mid-mount mower, an umbrella!, and even a backhoe with a decent mounting system.

It's a really decent 30 hp tractor from a bygone era. Sure wish the market had something like it today.
rScotty

 

[Anomic]

That JD950 just might be a contender for the most reliable long-lived basic small tractor ever made.

I agree. Mine would need about 3000$ to be “good as new” mostly brakes. I’m on the lookout for a loader and if I find one I would do power steering as well. Without a loader it isn’t needed at all.