TSO
Elite Member
LOL
But I don't think anyone is suggesting that that gear won't work ... Just that HST is better
NX4510 HSTC Pricing
- Thread starter RockyNY
- Start date
- Views: 34718
LOL
But I don't think anyone is suggesting that that gear won't work ... Just that HST is better
gladehound
Veteran Member
Which means a same price HST would get less than nothing done in 2 days!:laughing:
I think its mostly a matter of skill.
Before anyone wants to start on me remember I have gear, HST and power shuttle right here all the time so I have a fair comparison at my finger tips and find that they all have their strong points and weakness. The hard part for me is to find any one thing the HST does better than a gear or power shuttle when the attachment is properly sized to the machine and the correct gear is used with a driver that's not half afraid to use the machine to its potential. In most cases I find the power shuttle the most productive machine I have and it is able to use high gear for work loads which the HST isn't.
Amvcane
Platinum Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2013
- Messages
- 662
- Location
- NEPA
- Tractor
- 2012 Kioti CK35hst tlb; 1988 JD 420; 1990 JD 322; 1987 JD 332; 1985 JD 318; 2010 JD ProGator 2030A;
I'll make it easy for you, Snow blowing. IMO (with a gear) there is no way you can vary your speed with the constantly changing depths and densities of snow and still get the job done as efficiently as an HST. I'm sure many Bynetters could back this up.
As for loader work, I myself feel the HST is more efficient, hand on steering, hand on joystick, foot on treadle. They are always working, removing any one for a second will introduce inefficiency.
I have seen a well seasoned gear operator doing loader work (my neighbor) and I am truly amazed at how second nature the movements are. With someone that good in the seat the HST has only a slight advantage. As for snow blowing the gear is a disadvantage.
TSO
Elite Member
I am a seasoned loader operator with HST, and some experience with shuttles. I can absolutely guarantee that with equal machines, I am more efficient than another operator of equal experience who is using a shuttle, mechanical or power. Same goes for box blade and fine grading work. Those are precision applications, and HST wins every time. When it comes to ground engagement work and shear muscle put to the ground, I would take a gear/shuttle tractor over HST. That would include skidding logs out of the woods, row crop work, discing, field cultivation, etc.
Last edited:
MinnesotaEric
Super Member
But since none of us are farming for a living, were just trying to make more grass, trails, retaining walls, and pushing snow around to teach it who's boss, HST!
Rarrr!
Rarrr!
DDT414
Member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2014
- Messages
- 27
I find this hst vrs power shuttle interesting. For what I do I would not consider a gear unit. I use mine for acreage work and loader placement. My tractors range from 20 hp, Kioti CK20 up to a JD 9560R. If the JD 5 series and the Koiti RX series were the same money I'm not sure any of the gear units would sell.
On a second note, the new series of small - mid sized Cat wheel loaders just switched to hydro drives.
countrybumpkin
Elite Member
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2005
- Messages
- 3,248
- Tractor
- Kioti, kubota
Very well said, I couldn't agree more, and I'm partial to shuttles.
gladehound
Veteran Member
I see two different debates going on here.
1 - HST vs. power reverser on otherwise like machines. Most would agree that the gear tractor is marginally better for field work / pulling heavy loads because it get's more power to the ground. For rough loader work they are about the same if the gear operator is very good. For precission loader work, snow blowing or anything that fine variation of speed without impacting PTO speed the HST is better.
2 - HST vs. power reverser of the same price. Here is where it get's more complicated. Field work / pulling heavy loads the bigger power reverser obviously wins. Rough loader work the bigger power reverser wins (like moving piles of anything). For snow blowing, I'd say the bigger power reverser wins. Sure, the HST operator can slow down for the drift, but the power reverser operator either wont have to slow down or if he does it's because he was going faster than the HST operator to start with or using a wider snowblower. For precision loader work the power reverser operator will probably go slower than the HST operator since speed cannot be varied as much. On the other hand, he may use a larger heavier implement / bucket and get more done with each pass. In situations where the task is well below the capabilities of the tactor, HST wins hands down - But otherwise I don't know.
I have not looked closely at the market to see what you can get in a power reverser for the price of an HST at every price point. My budget was $20,000 and at that price point power reverser wins because I'd be down a frame size in an HST.
For the future buyer who is trying to decide between HST / power reverser or other gear tractor, it really depends on what they want to do. I push trees over, skid them, do ocasional landscaping, move a lot of snow (many driveways), maintain a gravel driveway and do hay rides in the fall. Not a single one of these taskes could be done better by going down a frame size and getting HST.
However, if you have multiple operators, want to maximize productivity for a certain weight tractor (trailering considerations) for mostly loader / landscaping work, are doing mostly work for hire and can't afford to have an employee bump something, are not experienced with gear tractor operation, are not concerned with maximizing pulling power to the ground and can afford it, than the HST makes all the sense in the world.
If someone is looking to purchase, they need to figure out what they need their tractor to do, how much they can spend, and at that price point what size tractor / tranny combination makes sense. It is not as simple as HST is better or power reverser is better. In some cases, a gear tractor with no reverser may be best because you can get a beast for the same price as a fancier tractor.
1 - HST vs. power reverser on otherwise like machines. Most would agree that the gear tractor is marginally better for field work / pulling heavy loads because it get's more power to the ground. For rough loader work they are about the same if the gear operator is very good. For precission loader work, snow blowing or anything that fine variation of speed without impacting PTO speed the HST is better.
2 - HST vs. power reverser of the same price. Here is where it get's more complicated. Field work / pulling heavy loads the bigger power reverser obviously wins. Rough loader work the bigger power reverser wins (like moving piles of anything). For snow blowing, I'd say the bigger power reverser wins. Sure, the HST operator can slow down for the drift, but the power reverser operator either wont have to slow down or if he does it's because he was going faster than the HST operator to start with or using a wider snowblower. For precision loader work the power reverser operator will probably go slower than the HST operator since speed cannot be varied as much. On the other hand, he may use a larger heavier implement / bucket and get more done with each pass. In situations where the task is well below the capabilities of the tactor, HST wins hands down - But otherwise I don't know.
I have not looked closely at the market to see what you can get in a power reverser for the price of an HST at every price point. My budget was $20,000 and at that price point power reverser wins because I'd be down a frame size in an HST.
For the future buyer who is trying to decide between HST / power reverser or other gear tractor, it really depends on what they want to do. I push trees over, skid them, do ocasional landscaping, move a lot of snow (many driveways), maintain a gravel driveway and do hay rides in the fall. Not a single one of these taskes could be done better by going down a frame size and getting HST.
However, if you have multiple operators, want to maximize productivity for a certain weight tractor (trailering considerations) for mostly loader / landscaping work, are doing mostly work for hire and can't afford to have an employee bump something, are not experienced with gear tractor operation, are not concerned with maximizing pulling power to the ground and can afford it, than the HST makes all the sense in the world.
If someone is looking to purchase, they need to figure out what they need their tractor to do, how much they can spend, and at that price point what size tractor / tranny combination makes sense. It is not as simple as HST is better or power reverser is better. In some cases, a gear tractor with no reverser may be best because you can get a beast for the same price as a fancier tractor.
GManBart
Elite Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2012
- Messages
- 4,976
- Location
- Detroit, Michigan
- Tractor
- Massey Ferguson 241, Kubota SVL90-2
I'm not so sure a power shuttle tranny would be as good for snow thrower ops, although I'm sure it would get the job done.
The problem, as I see it, is that you want the engine to be at PTO speed to run the thrower properly, and engine speed is what varies ground speed with a shuttle tranny. That means when you want to slow down, or speed up, for the conditions/depth of snow, you have to change gears, push in the clutch, or accept that the thrower is at the wrong speed and may not throw the snow far enough. With an HST transmission you set the RPM to PTO speed, and move the pedals to vary speed within the range selected...very easy to do and the thrower is running at the proper speed the whole time.
Keep in mind I don't own anything with an HST transmission right now, so I'm not overly biased in their favor. I love the power shuttle in my backhoe, and I know I can do delicate, accurate, fast work with it, but it would definitely be a touch easier/faster if it were an HST system.
The problem, as I see it, is that you want the engine to be at PTO speed to run the thrower properly, and engine speed is what varies ground speed with a shuttle tranny. That means when you want to slow down, or speed up, for the conditions/depth of snow, you have to change gears, push in the clutch, or accept that the thrower is at the wrong speed and may not throw the snow far enough. With an HST transmission you set the RPM to PTO speed, and move the pedals to vary speed within the range selected...very easy to do and the thrower is running at the proper speed the whole time.
Keep in mind I don't own anything with an HST transmission right now, so I'm not overly biased in their favor. I love the power shuttle in my backhoe, and I know I can do delicate, accurate, fast work with it, but it would definitely be a touch easier/faster if it were an HST system.
gladehound
Veteran Member
GManBart - I 100% agree. Unless the gear tractor is much larger, which it may be if you are shopping by price and comparing large basic models to smaller premium models. You can easily end up with 10+ more PTO hp with the gear tractor at the same price point.
TJP89
Veteran Member
That is exactly the way I see it. With a HST tractor, ground speed can be almost completely independent of Engine RPM and PTO power. Not so with ANY gear tractor. My primary work is with a loader, snow pushing, grading, and occasional mower work. There is no way an operator on a gear tractor can push back dirt or snow piles as fast as I can with a HST, I find it very hard to believe you can power shuttle form 3-4 mph forward to 3-4 mph backward without clutching. Now, if I was using a tractor to mow a lot or constant field work, there is no way I would want HST.
gladehound
Veteran Member
This is a perfect example of a price comparison because your CK35 HST is very similar in price to my DS4510HS. Some may object that these tractors are not in the same class. However, they are at the same price point and because of that they should be compared by potential buyers.
Based on your statement, I'm guessing you've never operated a power reverser. I've spent ample time on both HST and power reversers and there is no question that a DS4510HS will move snow and dirt faster than a CK35HST with experienced operators! Here's why:
First, you can't go through a cycle of scooping / dumping significantly faster than I can. I change directions in a gear that will do 3-4 mph all the time without clutching. Max speed in 4th gear on my DS4510HS is 4mph. Min speed in 4th gear is 1.4 mph. This is the gear I typically use for loader work. When changing directions I lift my foot off the throttle, the engine rapidly decelarates the tractor to 1.4 mph. I pop the reverser into neutral and cost until I want to go backwards (or use the brakes if I want to stop sooner, if in a pile you stop when going to neutral) then I flip the lever into reverse and use the throttle to control speed between 1.4 mph and 4 mph. If I need to use brakes and throttle at the same time I can easily toe the brakes and heal the throttle. It sounds complicated but I don't even have to think about it. It's like walking. Hard to learn but quickly becomes second nature. I'm not suggesting it's better or even for 90% of the people out there, but for the 10% that like the dance, it's a great set up.
Now consider that I have nearly twice the lift capacity, a bigger bucket, and substantially more weight and power. For each cycle I'm moving a lot more material. So even if you are 10% faster per cycle (which I doubt you are), it makes no difference. I can move way more material in the same amount of time.
CK35 HST verse CK35 gear the HST wins hands down.
MinnesotaEric
Super Member
Your description of a hydro-shuttle is how it is supposed to work, but in limited traction conditions, the hydro-shuttle requires manual clutching.
This came up in a comment in one of my videos this weekend: a guy with a Kubota M9540 said he'd fire me for riding or using the clutch while plowing, writing, "I have a 9540 and if you were driving my tractor you would be fired for riding the clutch and using it, you don't need to use the clutch its has a hydraulic shuttle."
What the commenter didn't realize is that the weight of the plow, the lack of ballast in the rear, combined with limited traction, confused the engagement (or release) timing of the hydro shuttle. Not wanting to get "fired" by random internet commentators on my videos, :thumbsup: I wrote back, explaining: "Remember, with a heavy plow up front, and using a tall enough gear to clear parking lots, that the hydraulic shuttle will first spin wheels, then stall when the tractor finds traction but isn't moving fast enough to prevent a stall. I discussed this problem [in the video] when I said that I tried upping the throttle but that action confused the "clutch computer," and so I reverted to driving the 9540 like an old style clutch where the operator slips to clutch only as needed so as to not stall the engine while increasing the travel speed from a dead stop. Moreover, you're using the term riding the clutch incorrectly: Riding the clutch is continually slipping the clutch and not allowing the friction plate to to lock against the pressure plate and flywheel. I never ride the clutch as doing so leads to premature failure."
Well that's just an other reason to take the computer out of the tractor market! My old power shuttle has never given me a stall situation when using it in any gear at any speed. It simply works as its intended to and I guess if I come across a good deal on a newer power shuttle I will have to test it to see if its a computer making the decision or the operator that's actually controlling it. If the computer is being fooled into thinking anything then the computer needs to be eliminated!
GManBart
Elite Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2012
- Messages
- 4,976
- Location
- Detroit, Michigan
- Tractor
- Massey Ferguson 241, Kubota SVL90-2
No argument there. I will point out that some power shuttles don't have a clutch pedal at all. With my backhoe I come to nearly a complete stop before switching directions, because I know that's an easy way to snap an axle...I haven't had it happen, but I'd rather not buy expensive parts
I always came to nearly a stop before changing direction with an HST setup, but I don't think I was quite as careful about it (don't have to be really).
Deerherd
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2012
- Messages
- 1,064
- Location
- Upstate, NY
- Tractor
- LS P7030 CPS, 2016 Bobcat E42, Ferris IS3100z w/37 HP Kawasaki
I plow in much worse conditions than you show in the video with a power shuttle and I would also classify your video in the "how not to run a power shuttle" genre of short films. You aren't really moving that much snow. Having the tractor poorly ballasted doesn't excuse your poor technique either.
If you can't take off on that flat parking lot with that amount of snow without using the clutch something is seriously wrong with your setup.
And not for nothing in limited slip conditions when you get really good you can have the wheels going the opposite direction before you actually change direction.
TJP89
Veteran Member
I have actually used a power shuttle. but not with the loader work being the primary use. I should have qualified my above statement with the fact that the tractors have to be equal. Obviously the guy in a Case 75C is going to move snow faster than my little CK. You do have a point with more power at a lower price point. I actually considered going up a few sizes to a PS, but it was still more expensive as I didn't want the bare bones tractors. however, you admit that you can't set the throttle at a certain RPM, move forward, then just throw the thing into reverse. I of course slow down as I have to switch pedals, but I don't have to juggle with a throttle too. An experience operator with a foot throttle could do so, but he still has to drop RPMs, which is undesirable, especially in PTO use situations.
Now, when you have enough gears so that you can smoothly decrease speed independent of throttle, with either a glide shift or a two stage clutch, and power shuttle, the difference between the 2 narrows significantly. Of course that many gears are currently only available on bigger machines, where HST is not.
Price point being the same, It seems the speed or work done is close to the same, and tranny type is operator preference. I think HST is more flexible, so I'll stick with it unless I go much bigger.
gladehound
Veteran Member
That's very interesting I and did not know that a computer controlled hydraulic shuttle could get confused like that. I wonder if other computer controlled hydraulic shuttles have the same problem or if it is specific to that system.
I don't have computer modulation on my hydraulic shuttle. A little spin in the wheels makes the direction change smoother and it works the same no matter the conditions.
I think the engine has a lot to do with making it work well. My pre Tier 4 engine has a lot of idle torque for the tractor size. Idle torque and peak torgue at 1700 RPM are almost the same. It's like a platau from 1000 to 1700 RPM before it starts falling off as RPM climb higher. Without that torque, I probably wouldn't like the power reverser. The hydraulic reverser will even work in top gear at idle, which I only tried once just to see if it would stall or not. It didn't. Honestly, it was the torque of this engine that hooked me on the sale.
My tractor isn't all roses and I'm not trying to say it's as convenient as HST. It's nothing like an HST for ease of use. Direction changes are harsh when in the middle gears that have a little speed but not enough gear to lug the engine. Plus if you're not adept at double clutching and rev matching, shifting on the fly will be a problem. As I said before, you have to enjoy the dance or this type of set up is not for you.
The value proposition RX to NX does not seem as extreme as the DS to CK comparison. The jump up in weight, lift and engine is not as compelling. I've read complaints about the RX not having good idle torque (blame a smallish [for that size tractor] 2.4L turbo tuned for emisions not max idle torque). So i wonder if it would have the same stalling problem that the kubota in the video had - or just wouldn't be that enjoyable to operate.
The purpose of my posts are not to argue which is better, HST or power reversers. If money were no issue I would have a New Holland TV6070 which is hydrostatic with auto downshifting. However, for most of us, money is an issue. So I just wanted to provide information on the other options. i.e. going bigger with a simpler transmission. For some bigger and simpler makes sense, for others (probably most) the conveniece of HST makes sense. To simply shout from the mountain tops that HST tractors are better is misleading. It depends on the intended use, the operator(s), and the budget.
