Oil differentiation between diesel and auto applications

[hutchman]

But there are other elements that have been added to modern oils that have been very effective in complementing lower levels of zinc

very true.

Not sure if your contention that motors are wearing faster with the new oils ...

I'm just stating the facts. EPA regulations forced the chemical change in oil due to emission systems (EGR, DPF, etc), because of this the long standing tried and true wear additives were changed. I'm not revealing any new information I came up with myself. It is easily found if you just google search a few terms like "CI-4 vs CJ-4", "flat tappet diesel oil", or "old Rotella T vs Rotella T Triple Protection" (lots of unhappy people talking about that one) etc.

There is more than one case where a person calls up or emails Shell and tells them what engine they have in their old loader or dozer and asks which oil they should use that will meet the old spec. and they are told to use T6 full synthetic (because they can't recommend any of their conventional oils) which barely exceeds the ppm of wear additives the old spec "ordinary" oil had ... that was way cheaper. Means a lot when you have a machine that takes oil by the 5 gal. bucket!

Do some google searches. I've been doing UOA over ten years now on my own stuff and have witnessed this trend myself. Get on any forum (Bobs the oil is a great one) that has folks regularly posting their UOA results and you'll find people talking about it and you can actually see the formulation changes ... especially when people post virgin oil analysis (new oil that hasn't been used).

Race engine builders also talk about it quite a bit ... especially the ones building flat tappet high output engines. I don't have anything like that but I do have flat tappet diesel's so that's what I pay the most attention to. I'm just sharing the info I've read over the years. If your not into doing oil analysis or race engines you probably missed what's been going on.

Here is but one recent short article that pretty much sums it up:

Enertech Labs – New Diesel Motor Oil CI-4 vs CJ-4

Quoting a few snipits from that article:

"The motor oil in the new 2007 engines will operate at much higher temperatures due to the EGR systems. This places the oil under extreme thermal stress and will reduce the oils useful life even with the improvements in thermal stabilization. The use of current CI-4 oil in a 2007 engine will likely cause problems with oil thickening due to the high heat and is not recommended for those engines."

"The EPA has forced the oil producers to limit some of the most important components found in heavy duty diesel oils. There are serious reductions in sulfated ash, zinc, phosphorus, and sulfur. These important components have long been the basis for the highest quality oils. Sulfated ash absorbs and neutralizes acids developed in the combustion process; zinc, phosphorus, and sulfur protect metal components against wear, provide extreme pressure (EP) lubrication, and offer a cushioning effect between components.

The CJ-4 and CJ-4 Plus specifications likely represent the practical upper limits of mineral oil technology for diesel engines"

"The pre 2007 and especially pre 2002 engines will likely suffer increased component wear and reduced oil change intervals when using the CJ-4 oils. Off-Road engines using high sulfur and low sulfur diesel fuels will not have the ability to neutralize and absorb the high levels of acid produced by burning those fuels. This will at a minimum result in the need to change oil much more often and is likely to cause accelerated component wear and degradation."

"When you consider that the new CJ-4 and CJ-4 Plus oils will likely cost 15% to 20% more than the current oils and will likely not perform as well in pre 2007 engines you have to ask yourself if it the right thing to use."

Did you see that "Sulfated ash absorbs and neutralizes acids developed in the combustion process" sentence ... that's your TBN (Total Base Number) and that number in both Shell Rotella and Mobil 1 has gone down quite a bit from old to new. When I saw that in my own UOA's that's when I started reading up on what's going on.

... again, nothing new here, you can find numerous articles like this all day long if you do a little bit of searching.

Word of caution ... the tendency for some who learn this information is to go out and buy ZDDP additive and pour gobs of it in. Too much of a good thing can be just as harmful. You can get galling and other problems with too much. If you do have old pre-2007 flat tappet diesels, do add extra additives but read the instructions and don't go crazy with them or you're only going to make matters worse.

My newest old engine is a 1982 DT466.

... and I just replaced cam, lifters and bearings in my 2006 VW BRM TDI and broke the new cam in with Joe Gibbs racing break-in oil (thanks to Frank Irving who has access to a cam builder who knows a thing or two about this subject).

Edit ... just so I'm not misunderstood ... I'm not saying you should use gasoline oil in a diesel or that it is just as good. My comments regarding gasoline oil are simply to point out that some of the additives in today's diesel oil are about the same as in today's gasoline oil or the oil from a few years ago.

 

[hutchman]

... and for your enjoyment, I found one of those Shell phone calls that an engineer replies to I mentioned:

Shell Rotella T - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board

I picked this one because it further backs up one of my previous statements that today's diesel oil doesn't have much more anti wear additives than automobile oil (or at least diesel oil is trending that way which isn't good for us that have old engines that were designed to run on the older diesel oils):

"Passenger car motor oils had approximately 1200 ppm zinc prior to 2001. In 2001 the zinc was reduced to 1000 ppm and in 2005 reduced again to the current 800 ppm.
Thus, the new Rotella T with triple protection 15w-40 CJ-4 has the same zinc content that passenger car motor oils had in 2000 before the current problems with flat tappets began."

 

[hutchman]

Two more articles for some light bedtime reading enjoyment ... will explain things way better than I did:

Turbo Diesel Register Tech: Lube Oil, Religion, Specifications and the TDR
http://www.turbodieselregister.com/TDR57_Oil.pdf

 

[RickB]

... and for your enjoyment, I found one of those Shell phone calls that an engineer replies to I mentioned:

Shell Rotella T - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board

I picked this one because it further backs up one of my previous statements that today's diesel oil doesn't have much more anti wear additives than automobile oil (or at least diesel oil is trending that way which isn't good for us that have old engines that were designed to run on the older diesel oils):

"Passenger car motor oils had approximately 1200 ppm zinc prior to 2001. In 2001 the zinc was reduced to 1000 ppm and in 2005 reduced again to the current 800 ppm.
Thus, the new Rotella T with triple protection 15w-40 CJ-4 has the same zinc content that passenger car motor oils had in 2000 before the current problems with flat tappets began."

So Rotella currently has 1200 ppm of zinc, S rated oils now have 800 ppm of zinc, and you are telling us that's the same level of zinc additive? Nowhere is it mentioned how much zinc a C-rated oil had in Y2K. Seems pretty clear to me that my recommendation of a high quality C-rated oil for solid lifter gas engines will continue.

 

[txdon]

I just looked at the owner's manual for my new Kawasaki FR691V engine in my Z mower. It says to use API Service Classification SF, SG, SH, SJ, SL. The SAE 30 oil I bought has API - SN. Is it OK to use the newer SN or should I stick with the recommendations?

It is a 2015 engine but the owners manual is dated 2008.

 

[buickanddeere]

.....

 

[buickanddeere]

Before we get too terribly upset. There has been very low ash, straight weight motor oils rated SF-2 used for decades in two stroke Detroit Diesels. Keeping in mind of course that the DD two strokes used roller cam followers for a reason.
It maybe possible that some flat tappet engines may have been wiped out by SF-2 if the owner tried to use one oil in everything.
The last 2-53 I rebuilt was bunged just about closed in the exhaust ports and the pistons/sleeves were scored. As the old fool who owned it poured in four stroke diesel motor oil.

 

[hutchman]

I just looked at the owner's manual for my new Kawasaki FR691V engine in my Z mower. It says to use API Service Classification SF, SG, SH, SJ, SL. The SAE 30 oil I bought has API - SN. Is it OK to use the newer SN or should I stick with the recommendations?

It is a 2015 engine but the owners manual is dated 2008.

API Engine Oil Classification

Should be OK. The issue I'm mainly zeroing in on is old diesel engines (and some new ones) with flat tappet lifters.

Your engone sounds like its fairy new ... the rub is sometimes the older engine "needs" the properties of the older spec oil that isn't available anymore. So you have to know your engine and understand what it really needs and figure out a way to keep it happy.

 

[txdon]

Thanks Hutchman.

 

[number two]

Before we get too terribly upset. There has been very low ash, straight weight motor oils rated SF-2 used for decades in two stroke Detroit Diesels. Keeping in mind of course that the DD two strokes used roller cam followers for a reason.
It maybe possible that some flat tappet engines may have been wiped out by SF-2 if the owner tried to use one oil in everything.
The last 2-53 I rebuilt was bunged just about closed in the exhaust ports and the pistons/sleeves were scored. As the old fool who owned it poured in four stroke diesel motor oil.

Excellent post-thank you!
I ran 6 of those 92 Series engines in the 70's and 80's-fond memories for sure!
Still see many marine units being serviced out there-most seem to realize there is a difference in the motor oil requirements.
Note-I said most!
By the way,you meant to write CF-2,instead of SF-2?
Good Luck!