Oil Pan Problem

[stanj]

Ok,
So I was going to change the oil in my Toro Tiller and save some money by doing it myself, ,Well, Murphy's law went into affect, I can't remember when it was done last (may have been by a dealer). Anyway, it is a Briggs and Stratton engine with 2 oil drain plugs.

I tried for an hour to loosen the plugs but they will not budge. Almost to the point of being stripped. I tried wd-40 but it did not help budge the plugs.

So, I used a siphon pump that has a long plastic tube . I inserted it into the opening where the oil is added to the engine, I was able to get most of the oil out,. However, when I attempted to remove it, the long plastic tube was caught on something and a piece about 3-3.5 inches broke off and is now inside the oil pan.:ashamed: I cannot see it or get to it..

Not sure what to do now. Leave it in there? Take to a dealer (probably big bucks..)

Any ideas on how to remove the drain plugs that seem to be frozen?

 

[RalphVa]

That's why I went to an oil extractor. Great for getting oil out of lawn mowers (most don't have drain plugs any more) and generators. I'd try sprays with PB Blaster. Maybe bang the drain plugs on their flat side. Don't try heat. Could cause some light stuff in the crankcase to explode.

Ralph

 

[stanj]

I will try PB Blaster ,,,didn't know about a oil extractor...

but what about the piece of plastic that is now inside the oil pan ?

stan

That's why I went to an oil extractor. Great for getting oil out of lawn mowers (most don't have drain plugs any more) and generators. I'd try sprays with PB Blaster. Maybe bang the drain plugs on their flat side. Don't try heat. Could cause some light stuff in the crankcase to explode.

Ralph

 

[3930dave]

Try cold on the plugs.

Either a purpose designed Freeze-It spray, or spray a air duster can (I get mine in 6 packs from Costco) upside down to get a blast of liquid on the plug - use a well fitting socket on a big breaker bar just after that.

That plastic should come out - either fish it out thru the drain plug hole, or the pan needs to come off.

Rgds, D.

 

[RalphVa]

Look up oil extractor on line. I got mine from DR.

Either don't worry about the plastic or remove the pan. I'd think it ought to be easy enough to take the pan down.

Ralph

 

[stanj]

Look up oil extractor on line. I got mine from DR.

Either don't worry about the plastic or remove the pan. I'd think it ought to be easy enough to take the pan down.

Ralph

Ok,
So what is the process to take the pan down?
attached are some photos

thanks

 

[flyerdan]

That doesn't have an oil pan, it looks to be a garden variety horizontal shaft of around 5 hp or so. They come apart by taking the side cover off the drive side and all the engine components come out that way.
If it were mine, I'd cone out a half or 7/16 nut and put it over one of the square plugs and weld in the cone. That will let you get on it with a socket, and the heat will loosen the corrosion in the aluminum case. As for the plastic hose in the fill tube, if you can grab it with some needle nose pliers and work it around it will probably come out. You might have to push it in a bit and wiggle it to free it up. You can fuss with it for quite a while before having to tear it down to remove it, as that takes a bit of time as well.

 

[3930dave]

Try a big pair of vice-grips, clamped as hard as you can go, on the drain plug where there is no heat shield above it. I'd be a bit surprised if a 3' pipe on the end of that vice-grip won't shift it.

Once you perfect that technique on that plug, you should be ready for the one with less clearance :thumbsup:.

Rgds, D.

Edit - the plugs may be redundant, but you won't know for sure till they are both out. Next time, you may only need to remove one.

 

[RalphVa]

Yeah, no oil pan. Wonder if you can get access to the area where the plastic is if you remove that piece with two bolts on it just above and to the right of the one oil drain.

I think one drain is redundant. Likely only need the one removed to drain.

I vote for some good vice grips clapped firmly onto the drain plug and maybe use a short pipe over the vice grips to give you some more torque.

Some heat and some raps on the face of the drain plug may help. Not much heat. Do not want to explode any gases in the crankcase.

Ralph

 

[stanj]

I tried the 3/8 socket it would not fit on the plugs,
Tried a 12mm and it did fit but started to slip when turning.
Used PB Blaster. Did not have a pipe wrench so I tried vice grips..
I applied the grips and then used a small sledge hammer to tap the vice grip handle.
It eventually loosened it up and was able to remove the plug.
The oil drained out.

However, the plug on the other side of the engine would not budge.
Tried an hour and it did not budge. The vice grips tour it up pretty bad.
So, I have the oil out but the plug on the other side is a no go.
I assume I can leave it alone now that it is all chewed up unless there are other ways to try?

for extracting the plastic, i am not sure,, the one I have is 8 HP.
the Engine Model is 195432 1038 01 96043011

Yeah, no oil pan. Wonder if you can get access to the area where the plastic is if you remove that piece with two bolts on it just above and to the right of the one oil drain.

I think one drain is redundant. Likely only need the one removed to drain.

I vote for some good vice grips clapped firmly onto the drain plug and maybe use a short pipe over the vice grips to give you some more torque.

Some heat and some raps on the face of the drain plug may help. Not much heat. Do not want to explode any gases in the crankcase.

Ralph

 

[3930dave]

If you can secure the tiller so it doesn't move, I'd use heat (propane torch is enough) on the plug, immediately followed by vicegrips and about 5' of pipe. Really stubborn stuff I'll use heat then spray immediately after with freeze-it spray - you're using thermal shock to break corrosion.

Even a 100# person on the end of 5' of pipe can exert a lot of torque. I took a hitch ball off once that had been air gunned on with hard steel wire (I kid not) wound into the threads - I used a Craftsman breaker bar with 8' of pipe on it. I honestly thought I was going to break the bar, but it held, and the ball came off....

Try tightening the plug. Two reasons:

1) I'll often try this move on difficult fittings, to help break corrosion.

2) Long shot, but I'm beginning to wonder if that plug on the other side is left-hand threaded ? If so, it might have been done to counter engine vibration torque. If you hit the Briggs site with that engine number and dig through the parts section, you may find if you have 1 or 2 PNs for those plugs.

Strange that these oil plugs are that seized. Either some gorilla put 'em on, or there is a substantial amount of corrosion in place. After that fight, I'd be putting the plug(s) back in with good quality (meaning the pink stuff) teflon tape, to negate future corrosion problems.

Rgds, D.

 

[flyerdan]

That has a mechanical governor that is driven off the camshaft, so that could be the plastic gear that won't let the tubing go. Not sure if it has an oil slinger as well, you might try rotating the crank back and forth a couple degrees while trying to dislodge the tube. That will move the plastic gears back and forth a bit so if that's what's holding it up you should feel it. I know, you kind of run out of hands doing this, trying to grip the tube and rotate the mill and hold a light. A helper comes in handy sometimes, if available.

 

[stanj]

ok,, so what crank are you referring to?

i am not sure I have a tool to reach down into the oil pan area.
needle nose plies I have are too wide.

i am pretty much on my own trying to work on this..

thanks

That has a mechanical governor that is driven off the camshaft, so that could be the plastic gear that won't let the tubing go. Not sure if it has an oil slinger as well, you might try rotating the crank back and forth a couple degrees while trying to dislodge the tube. That will move the plastic gears back and forth a bit so if that's what's holding it up you should feel it. I know, you kind of run out of hands doing this, trying to grip the tube and rotate the mill and hold a light. A helper comes in handy sometimes, if available.

 

[3930dave]

Try taking some solid steel wire (fencing wire, even picture hanging wire that is solid), and make a small hook at the end. Sharpen the hook a bit so it can puncture the tubing that you are after. Try fishing with that, if you have no room for pliers.

My guess is Dan is talking about the crank(shaft) inside the engine - rocking it back and forth a bit so it lets go of the tube. Safety first - disconnect the spark plug wire by rotating then pulling on the spark plug boot.

If your tiller has an external drive shaft or chain, you can do this by manually moving the shaft or drive gear, with the tiller in Neutral. If the drivetrain in enclosed, you may have to put it in gear, and rock the tiller tines back and forth.

If one of the engine gears has snagged the drain tube, you shouldn't have to move very far to release the tube (Dan's point about a coupla degrees of crank rotation).

Again - safety first - disconnect the spark plug cable(s?) before doing anything further.

Rgds, D.

 

[stanj]

i had to move the tiller out of the shed to work on the oil plugs the other day. i had to put it in neutral to move it and then into drive position..but i have not tried to look inside since then
there is not l not of room via the removed plug or looking down the oil fill hole..can't see a lot..
i don't think it has an external shaft.

i was thinking of ordering Forceps?
but first, need to see inside ..

this is a site showing some of the tiller engine parts
Diagrams

 

[stanj]

checked it today. i took off both oil fill plastic caps. again just like the oil plugs, there are two ..not sure why you need two oil fill holes (one on each side)?
took out the one oil plug that I was able to remove the other day. i have a small pen light..i can look through the oil plug hole and see the other plug that is still inserted (the one I cannot budge!). cannot see anything else.

the light is small enough to fit over the oil fill hole. i mounted it on the one oil fill hole and went to the other side and looked down into the the second oil fill hole..i can see the light from the other side but not plastic tube. I took a long steel wire and inserted it down into the hole to fish around but cannot grab onto anything..,,

not sure what to try next...

 

[flyerdan]

They put dual filler/drain plugs in them so they can be placed in enclosures and still be serviced without removing the engine. If you can't see the broken off piece of tubing, it might have rolled to the middle. You might try putting some of the used oil* back in and tipping it to the side to see if it will flush out the drain hole. Providing, of course, that the tube is small enough to fit through the hole, which is 1/4"npt. That's easy enough to check with the existing hose. Chances are it won't flush out like a leaf through a culvert, but it will get it close to the drain where you can get at it with a wire probe and work it out. Might take a few attempts at flushing to get it oriented correctly.
*I say used oil as you don't want to risk contaminating good oil for this; old fuel or solvent would work as well.

 

[stanj]

ok,,,is it possible the plastic is stuck on something inside?

i think the tube end that is in there is too wide to come out the drain plug. It barely fit going into the oil fill hole.. it looks like this
Kerosene Heater Manual Siphon Pump

 

[flyerdan]

Yeah, that's definitely too big to come out the drain. It's quite possible that the tube is stuck to the bottom and side of the case through adhesion of oil residue that prevents it from rolling around like it would if everything was dry. At this point I'd just take off the pulley, clutch, or whatever drives the tiller and remove the side cover and get it out. From the design diagrams, this can be done without disturbing any of the internal components, and if one is careful you might be able to reuse the seal and gasket. I did that on a beater lawnmower last year, wire brush the rust off the shaft so it didn't tear the seal and used a razor blade on the parts of the gasket that wanted to stick to one side. Worst case is having to replace the gasket if it comes off in pieces, and the seal, which should be replaced if you have to buy a gasket just to be on the safe side.

 

[stanj]

ok,,i am not great with engine work....
i may check with a neighbor who works and a rental unlimited,,,or a local mower shop..
not sure it would cost?