Oil & Fuel Oil siight / Temp guage

[woodlandfarms]

Has anyone ever put something like this on their PT?

https://www.recyclingequipment.com/vm/details/310/16/epco/baler-reservoir-3

I would prefer something that has a low oil alarm but this isn't a terrible idea...

 

[SpringHollow]

That would not be the easiest thing to plumb in. It seems like it would be pretty easy to put in a pressure switch/alarm but that would be too late. A float switch would be difficult given the bouncing and angles we experience.

You could mount a thermometer and a mechanical float gauge in the cover if you wanted. I have found my thermometer to be quite useful. A look down and i can tell if the hydraulic radiator is working properly.

Ken

 

[BobRip]

You could mount a thermometer and a mechanical float gauge in the cover if you wanted. I have found my thermometer to be quite useful. A look down and i can tell if the hydraulic radiator is working properly.

Ken

Ken, how about a picture?

 

[woodlandfarms]

As this is the only fully hydraulic tractor i have ever owned, how do other tractors warn you of low oil? Or does that happen that often (hoses breaking / leaking or something else). Seems to be a popular occurance on the PT but I am not taking that assessment in context with other tractor owners.

 

[MossRoad]

Has anyone ever put something like this on their PT?

https://www.recyclingequipment.com/vm/details/310/16/epco/baler-reservoir-3

I would prefer something that has a low oil alarm but this isn't a terrible idea...

I'd be worried about cracking the sight glass.

On my old IH2500b there was an idiot light that warned of low hydraulic pressure. I would think you could plumb in an oil pressure guage/buzzer somewhere in the system that could be mounted on the dash for easy view/listen.

 

[ponytug]

Carl,

Personally, I'm with MR, I would be concerned about an external level sensor getting hung up on something and getting ripped out.

Since even systems as simple as hydraulic elevators spring leaks, so it isn't that surprising that a moving hydraulic system in a harsh environment (a PT) leaks.
Granted more of the piping could be metal, and more of it could be armored, but there will always be flexible hoses in some locations. Ultimately, any pipe, any hose, any joint can leak.

I think the bigger issue is when do you want to know, and what do you want to do?

Obviously, a low pressure shutdown would help prevent significant damage, but with the PT, it would leave us with a nice ornament somewhere until we repaired it there.

Knowing sooner, like when the leak first occurs would be nice, but that would require something like matching flow sensors on each circuit, and it wouldn't catch slow, but significant leaks.

As Ken points out, a level sensor is problematic given the uneven ground on which these vehicles function, although a centered float valve would be relatively immune. For my money, it is probably the best solution. It would require cutting up the top plate, but as Ken has shown, it gives you the chance to add magnets, temperature sensor(s), and the desired float gauge: go for it! While I have concerns that a float gauge is going to be problematic, you could try a vertical float indicator, something like the attached image (item 3610K41, from McMaster-Carr)

I probably lean toward KISS methods when it comes to harsh environments, as more complex solutions tend to require a great deal of protection and redundancy to achieve the desired goals.

When I below a seal on my motor, the thing that saved the tractor was my noticing the dripping oil. I am not sure that I would be looking at a level gauge every 20-30seconds. Any buzzer would have to be pretty loud to get through the hearing protection.

All the best,

Peter

As this is the only fully hydraulic tractor i have ever owned, how do other tractors warn you of low oil? Or does that happen that often (hoses breaking / leaking or something else). Seems to be a popular occurance on the PT but I am not taking that assessment in context with other tractor owners.

 

[SpringHollow]

Hi Bob,

I do not have a picture readily available at the moment but you can see it on my web site:

USA Discount Generators - Standby and Portable Gillette Generators

Ken

 

[SpringHollow]

The real problem with any sort of float indicator on the tank is that people say you have 20 seconds - 1 minute to realize there is a problem and stop. No one is going to look at the reservoir that often. It would help though if you had a slow leak and were not up on your maintenance. I certainly have been complacent at times about fluid levels since there has never been any issues.

Ken

 

[woodlandfarms]

This all stems from a nearly catastrophic incident that happened late last year. We have a friend who is a neighbor who got the "I am in love with someone else" conversation. 2 Kids, ugly situation. Because of work we knew that we would be stuck in LA through the winter so we offered to rent him our place (does not nearly cover the mortgage but it is the principal). Part of the deal is that he takes the PT out and mows on occassion. Well the purge / overflow / I can't remember what it is called line from the wheel motor was being pinched and cracked... slowly draining oil out of the system. Problem is that when he checked the oil it had oil on the dipstick (stupid PT Design using a shiny metal dipstick) and the tank did not get filled. It was nearly 3 gallons down when I caught it at thanksgiving.

So people come up to the property, and they want to go drive the beast around, and I am trying to think of a way to do it so when the next hose goes we do not loose a pump. Summer project when we get back up north.

 

[ponytug]

Ken, I agree completely. a ruptured PTO line could easily dump the tank in a minute, and if the break is in the engine compartment, how would any of us notice?

Frankly, given the complexities of some of the terrain that I operate on, I am not sure that I would even notice a buzzer and a flashing light on the dash. It would have to be a pretty loud sonalert type of buzzer to get me to
a) notice, and
b) take action
before anything catastrophic happened.

Of course, what are the odds?

If we thought it was significant, wouldn't we all be using biodegradable hydraulic oils?

All the best,

Peter

The real problem with any sort of float indicator on the tank is that people say you have 20 seconds - 1 minute to realize there is a problem and stop. No one is going to look at the reservoir that often. It would help though if you had a slow leak and were not up on your maintenance. I certainly have been complacent at times about fluid levels since there has never been any issues.

Ken

 

[MossRoad]

Many yeas ago I installed proximity sensors in oil based ink tanks to monitor the level of the fluid. All they were was a 1" cylinder of plastic about 2" long. We drilled 1" holes in the side of the tank and slid them in. They sealed with gaskets. They had power wires and sensor wires. They would change state depending on if fluid was around them or not. We used them to automatically control the level in the ink tanks.

It would seem to me that if you want a hydraulic reservoir low fluid level warning system, this would be a good option. You could mount it in the center of the rear of the tank, inside the engine compartment to protected from branches and such. If you mounted it half way down the tank, it would probably always be covered by fluid on slopes. If half your hydraulic fluid leaked out, it could sound a nasty loud buzzer. As long as it could take the heat of the engine compartment and hydraulic fluid, it would work.

You may be able to find a long one that could be mounted from the top through the tank top.

 

[ponytug]

Carl,

I think that this is a whole other ball of wax and I think that this falls into the category of trying to make the PT idiot proof...which I am not sure is doable.

I think the PTs are pieces of heavy equipment that really aren't designed for naive users. I think that to do that would require lots more safety equipment, redesign, and a far more elaborate warning system- like that 16 channel monitor/alarm system that I mentioned.

If I were you, I would be counting my blessings that I was only down 3 gallons, and no major harm done.

Perhaps you might want to get after that leaking hose? You are spilling oil into your drinking water, aren't you?

All the best,

Peter

This all stems from a nearly catastrophic incident that happened late last year. We have a friend who is a neighbor who got the "I am in love with someone else" conversation. 2 Kids, ugly situation. Because of work we knew that we would be stuck in LA through the winter so we offered to rent him our place (does not nearly cover the mortgage but it is the principal). Part of the deal is that he takes the PT out and mows on occassion. Well the purge / overflow / I can't remember what it is called line from the wheel motor was being pinched and cracked... slowly draining oil out of the system. Problem is that when he checked the oil it had oil on the dipstick (stupid PT Design using a shiny metal dipstick) and the tank did not get filled. It was nearly 3 gallons down when I caught it at thanksgiving.

So people come up to the property, and they want to go drive the beast around, and I am trying to think of a way to do it so when the next hose goes we do not loose a pump. Summer project when we get back up north.

 

[ponytug]

Dear MR,

Great idea. I have a question though, were your ink tanks sloshing around? (Actually two questions, where was this? A local newspaper?)

I have used these in the past and found that they were great on relatively static tanks, but required a certain amount of fiddling if the liquid tended to wave around abit. i.e. what sort of time scale should the averaging be set to? 15 seconds, 30? A minute? My concern with the PTs would be false alarms vs how fast the tank could be emptied.

The ones that I have worked with required a certain amount of clearance from walls to function well. Could they be mounted close to the tunnel on the PT and still function? (I would have to check some specification sheets.)

All the best,

Peter

Many yeas ago I installed proximity sensors in oil based ink tanks to monitor the level of the fluid. All they were was a 1" cylinder of plastic about 2" long. We drilled 1" holes in the side of the tank and slid them in. They sealed with gaskets. They had power wires and sensor wires. They would change state depending on if fluid was around them or not. We used them to automatically control the level in the ink tanks.

It would seem to me that if you want a hydraulic reservoir low fluid level warning system, this would be a good option. You could mount it in the center of the rear of the tank, inside the engine compartment to protected from branches and such. If you mounted it half way down the tank, it would probably always be covered by fluid on slopes. If half your hydraulic fluid leaked out, it could sound a nasty loud buzzer. As long as it could take the heat of the engine compartment and hydraulic fluid, it would work.

You may be able to find a long one that could be mounted from the top through the tank top.

 

[MossRoad]

Hey. We talked extensively about this last year! Read this interesting thread.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/power-trac/143685-pt1445-20-hrs-lost-steering.html

 

[woodlandfarms]

I head read that article, but did not see any mention of that device I had found. And what exactly do we have to talk about these days Either you are in mud or snow... Not much PTing to do ;-)

 

[jaquetarr]

The type of level sensor MossRoad suggests is used frequently at sea. It also has a 'rough sea' mode that inserts a time delay for rocking motion. This would not work if the PT was on a slope. However, if the probes were inserted into a plastic tube and set low into the tank - low enough to avoid any slosh / wave action for a normal level, the idea would work The tube would mitigate wave action and the low placement would protect the pump when the oil level reached a certain low critical level. It would be better yet If the probe was placed near the tank center. No need for any time delay or other fancy electronics. Just a simple series connection with the run wiring.

Has the idea of a low pressure kill switch been discussed? such a sensor installed at the pump discharge would detect low discharge pressure due to lack of oil (empty hyd oil tk) and kill the engine so the pump would not run completely dry.

Rgds,
tim

 

[SpringHollow]

I originally thought a pressure switch was the way to go but how do you differentiate between bypasses back to the tank and a pressure line leaking?

A flow switch might work.

But both of these just warn you or shut down the engine as you reach disaster, possibly preventing complete disaster, I do not know.

Ken

 

[Gravy]

The type of level sensor MossRoad suggests is used frequently at sea. It also has a 'rough sea' mode that inserts a time delay for rocking motion. This would not work if the PT was on a slope. However, if the probes were inserted into a plastic tube and set low into the tank - low enough to avoid any slosh / wave action for a normal level, the idea would work The tube would mitigate wave action and the low placement would protect the pump when the oil level reached a certain low critical level. It would be better yet If the probe was placed near the tank center. No need for any time delay or other fancy electronics. Just a simple series connection with the run wiring.

Has the idea of a low pressure kill switch been discussed? such a sensor installed at the pump discharge would detect low discharge pressure due to lack of oil (empty hyd oil tk) and kill the engine so the pump would not run completely dry.

Rgds,
tim

A simple SS vertical float switch with a suitable temperature rating would likely be sufficient. Just set it a couple of inches above the outlet of the tank and incorporate a relay to make it trigger a really bright warning light and a truly obnoxious alarm horn. You might get the odd momentary false alarm, but it would probably work well enough.

I agree with several others here - I can picture situations where I would sacrifice pumps to save my hiney. No hydraulic kill switches for me.

 

[jaquetarr]

I agree with several others here - I can picture situations where I would sacrifice pumps to save my hiney. No hydraulic kill switches for me.

If the main hyd pump goes (sacrificed) wouldn't the machine stop / drop load? Would this lead to losing hiney + losing pump?

Not trying to be a SA, but with my limited PT experience I cant picture the situation you describe.
Rgds,
tim

 

[ponytug]

Dear JT,

Imagine tractor on the side of a steep hill (30 degree), with a bad drop at the bottom, and a really steep climb to safety. Suddenly, you notice oil spraying out the bottom. What is the plan? (Time is ticking...)
Do you keep going?
Do you stop the tractor?
Drive it to the first flat place?
Or?

Basically, this is what happened to me when I blew my first motor seal. I elected to high tail it up to the top, where I had a chance of being able to fix/tow the tractor. It was a seat of the pants, instantaneous decision. Whether it was "Right", or not, I wouldn't want to opine, but it is what I did. So, yes, I was running the risk of killing the main pumps & motors, but it was going to leave the tractor in a location where I might actually be able to repair them.

With a hydraulic kill switch, I would have been stuck with a dead tractor on an incline too steep to service it safely without significant geotechnical engineering or some really, really complex skidding.

Does that help?

All the best,

Peter
P.S. And yes, I dug up all of the spilled oil...

If the main hyd pump goes (sacrificed) wouldn't the machine stop / drop load? Would this lead to losing hiney + losing pump?

Not trying to be a SA, but with my limited PT experience I cant picture the situation you describe.
Rgds,
tim