MossRoad
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Only SF would pull this stunt!
- Thread starter wasabi
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wasabi
Platinum Member
Re: Only SF would pull this!
Billboe, you and Charlie correctly point out that the Pledge did not originally contain the G reference, but was changed in 1954.
I was not clear about it, but did not mean to allude specifically to that alone, rather that our forefathers were obviously God loving (fearing?) folks....their belief in, and respect for, a higher power was clearly a factor in how the Constitution was drafted and how our country's governance was set up.
Not to beat a dead horse here, but I see no downside in always recognizing that our maker has a hand....in all things...
Personally I would be saddened to see God references such as "Under God', "In God we Trust", "God Bless", etc., removed, simply to placate a small but loud minority that chooses to be offended by our country's recognition of a higher power.
I respectfully disagree with Judge Alfred T. Goodwin, who opined that "none of these professions (to God) can be neutral with respect to religion". In the broader spiritual sense, the term "god" is non-denominational, non-religious and essentially a universal reference to "the highest power".
Billboe, you and Charlie correctly point out that the Pledge did not originally contain the G reference, but was changed in 1954.
I was not clear about it, but did not mean to allude specifically to that alone, rather that our forefathers were obviously God loving (fearing?) folks....their belief in, and respect for, a higher power was clearly a factor in how the Constitution was drafted and how our country's governance was set up.
Not to beat a dead horse here, but I see no downside in always recognizing that our maker has a hand....in all things...
Personally I would be saddened to see God references such as "Under God', "In God we Trust", "God Bless", etc., removed, simply to placate a small but loud minority that chooses to be offended by our country's recognition of a higher power.
I respectfully disagree with Judge Alfred T. Goodwin, who opined that "none of these professions (to God) can be neutral with respect to religion". In the broader spiritual sense, the term "god" is non-denominational, non-religious and essentially a universal reference to "the highest power".
MrP
Gold Member
Re: Only SF would pull this!
The original intention of the 1st amendment’s separation of Church and State was to keep the Church from controlling the State and the State from controlling the Church. The whole divorcement of “God” from government sponsored activity has been misconstrued and taken to an absurd level. If this type of jurisprudence continues unabated, our currency, all state constitutions and most national monuments will be considered unconstitutional.
The original intention of the 1st amendment’s separation of Church and State was to keep the Church from controlling the State and the State from controlling the Church. The whole divorcement of “God” from government sponsored activity has been misconstrued and taken to an absurd level. If this type of jurisprudence continues unabated, our currency, all state constitutions and most national monuments will be considered unconstitutional.
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rocky2
Silver Member
Re: Only SF would pull this!
Oh, how I was going to stay un-political today...just can't do it. How right you are. I don't see any mention that we all have to be Catholic, Baptist, Jewish, or whatever...But the choice of one mans faith, or lack thereof is being forced on us all by the liberal 9th court. His daughter wasn't forced to recite the Pledge, but just listening to others saying it upset him. He could have her exhibit her right and had asked that she be removed from the classroom during the Pledge for..."religious reasons". Now, the other side of the coin...is the act of being an Atheist a religious conviction?
The Bill of Rights
Amendment I.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".
Oh, how I was going to stay un-political today...just can't do it. How right you are. I don't see any mention that we all have to be Catholic, Baptist, Jewish, or whatever...But the choice of one mans faith, or lack thereof is being forced on us all by the liberal 9th court. His daughter wasn't forced to recite the Pledge, but just listening to others saying it upset him. He could have her exhibit her right and had asked that she be removed from the classroom during the Pledge for..."religious reasons". Now, the other side of the coin...is the act of being an Atheist a religious conviction?
The Bill of Rights
Amendment I.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".
Alan L.
Elite Member
I'm offended also, but fotunately it so so absurd that theres no way it will stand. These ignorant judges have really brought attention to how "way out there" they are.
MossRoad
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Re: Only SF would pull this!
This is not directed at anyone in particular, it is just my thought process.
The point is, if I go to a public event and say the pledge, but don't say "under god", I get dirty looks from the crowd.
If I get sworn in in court and they ask me to place my hand on the bible and say “so help me god”, I can't, because I would be telling a lie. So I explain myself to the judge and the crowd in the courtroom gasps. “He doesn’t believe in god! That’s terrible!”
The truth of the matter is, I am just as American as you. I fly my flag, vote in every election, honor veterans, obey the laws, tolerate and try to understand others’ beliefs and teach my kids to do the same. (I even bought an American made tractor /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif ). However, the only higher powers that I answer to are death and my conscience.
American is not a religion. It is a nationality. I’d prefer to leave religion out of government.
Best wishes to all TBNers /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
This is not directed at anyone in particular, it is just my thought process.
The point is, if I go to a public event and say the pledge, but don't say "under god", I get dirty looks from the crowd.
If I get sworn in in court and they ask me to place my hand on the bible and say “so help me god”, I can't, because I would be telling a lie. So I explain myself to the judge and the crowd in the courtroom gasps. “He doesn’t believe in god! That’s terrible!”
The truth of the matter is, I am just as American as you. I fly my flag, vote in every election, honor veterans, obey the laws, tolerate and try to understand others’ beliefs and teach my kids to do the same. (I even bought an American made tractor /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif ). However, the only higher powers that I answer to are death and my conscience.
American is not a religion. It is a nationality. I’d prefer to leave religion out of government.
Best wishes to all TBNers /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Re: Only SF would pull this!
But Moss, God isn't a religion either. God is nothing more than the English word for the creator of the universe. Gott is the German word and Allah is the Arabic word. They all mean the same thing. That creator may be a deity or it may just be nature. Whatever it is, it is a higher authority than man. If it didn't exist and if man were the highest authority, man would just choose to not grow old and die.
In the past, God has been the sun, the earth, the stars or the seasons. All references to nature and a higher power than man.
If you tell me you don't believe in the God of the Baptists I can understand that. Nut telling me you don't believe in God is just silly. There is a higher power than you and that power has the power of life and death over you. Perhaps that power is just nature but I guarantee that you will cower in fear when that God, the God of nature, sends a cat 5 tornado your direction. There are no atheists in fox holes.
The earth and the universe is alive and teeming with life. What makes you believe it also doesn't have a consciousness and a plan? Faith????????????? Oops......that's religious.
Just assign God to a power greater than you and rest assured you are not lying when you take an oath. Maybe your God is. like mine, really a goddess and your married to her. Mine moves in mysterious ways, does things that only she can understand and is not for me to know, seems to know what I'm doing even when she isn't there and always knows if I'm telling the truth or not. Sounds like God to me.
Most atheists are really agnostics like me.
But Moss, God isn't a religion either. God is nothing more than the English word for the creator of the universe. Gott is the German word and Allah is the Arabic word. They all mean the same thing. That creator may be a deity or it may just be nature. Whatever it is, it is a higher authority than man. If it didn't exist and if man were the highest authority, man would just choose to not grow old and die.
In the past, God has been the sun, the earth, the stars or the seasons. All references to nature and a higher power than man.
If you tell me you don't believe in the God of the Baptists I can understand that. Nut telling me you don't believe in God is just silly. There is a higher power than you and that power has the power of life and death over you. Perhaps that power is just nature but I guarantee that you will cower in fear when that God, the God of nature, sends a cat 5 tornado your direction. There are no atheists in fox holes.
The earth and the universe is alive and teeming with life. What makes you believe it also doesn't have a consciousness and a plan? Faith????????????? Oops......that's religious.
Just assign God to a power greater than you and rest assured you are not lying when you take an oath. Maybe your God is. like mine, really a goddess and your married to her. Mine moves in mysterious ways, does things that only she can understand and is not for me to know, seems to know what I'm doing even when she isn't there and always knows if I'm telling the truth or not. Sounds like God to me.
Most atheists are really agnostics like me.
MossRoad
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Re: Only SF would pull this!
I like your thinking /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
However, I don't think there is a higher power. Sometimes things happen that are beyond my control and sometimes I even have the wisdom to recognize that I cannot change them/w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif. I don't figure any higher power is out to get me and if they are, I don't want anything to do with some vengeful being. I try to live my life in a kind and generous fashion so that I have a clear mind with no thoughts of "should I have done differently" running around in there. That'll get me by just fine until I croak. And hopefully my wife, children and friends will remember me that way. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Here's some wisdom for you:
When my nephew was 5, my grandmother passed away. At the funeral, his grandmother went up to the casket with him to pay their final respects. She put her arm around him, trying to make sure he was comforted, and said, "Well, I guess you could just say she's sleeping", to which my nephew replied, "Or you could just say she's dead." Half the family heard it and a roar of laughter went up.
From the mouth of babes comes the truth. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
I like your thinking /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
However, I don't think there is a higher power. Sometimes things happen that are beyond my control and sometimes I even have the wisdom to recognize that I cannot change them/w3tcompact/icons/tongue.gif. I don't figure any higher power is out to get me and if they are, I don't want anything to do with some vengeful being. I try to live my life in a kind and generous fashion so that I have a clear mind with no thoughts of "should I have done differently" running around in there. That'll get me by just fine until I croak. And hopefully my wife, children and friends will remember me that way. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Here's some wisdom for you:
When my nephew was 5, my grandmother passed away. At the funeral, his grandmother went up to the casket with him to pay their final respects. She put her arm around him, trying to make sure he was comforted, and said, "Well, I guess you could just say she's sleeping", to which my nephew replied, "Or you could just say she's dead." Half the family heard it and a roar of laughter went up.
From the mouth of babes comes the truth. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
MossRoad
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Re: Only SF would pull this!
So is this discussion over, moved the the "pledge" discussion, or are you folks just having a fun weekend doing other stuff?
So is this discussion over, moved the the "pledge" discussion, or are you folks just having a fun weekend doing other stuff?
milkman
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sounds like we need a full and thorough investigation to get all the facts, and then a fully funded study to see why this happened in the first place. a new cabinet post to coordinate all the info as it comes in so someone can connect all the dots.